Someone asked:
If in conversation I am asking an agnostic evolutionist who keeps changing his position to account for logic and he responds it isn’t from himself or from the universe it is just eternal. It has always been in existence but not from Yahweh. That is tricky for me and I am not sure how to do an internal critique with such a view of logic. Help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
My response:
Note: I would encourage one to use questions in any apologetics dialogue in order to challenge the person to think and gently lead them to see the problem.
1.) “it isn’t…from the universe ”
Response: I take it by that we mean that the source of the laws of logic did not originate from the universe per se; my question would be “I agree and believe also the origin of logic is not from the universe (collection of all things and beings) in of itself, but without God behind the universe and logic, how did the universe ever become logical in it’s characteristics? Help explain how you can resolve that difficulty without God to me, or maybe we need to back up and have you give a better explanation of your understanding of the nature of logic and the universe?” (What I’m pursuing is to see his relationship of logic to the world, whether one is dependent upon another and also how logic can be embedded in the universe or the two have any corresponding relationship in a chance driven, non-purpose atheistic universe. My second question is to explore the individual’s understanding of the nature of logic and the nature of the universe so that one can spell out the difficulty of accounting for the laws of logic operating in the universe.)
2.) “it is just eternal. It has always been in existence but not from Yahweh.”
Response: Remember that our friend here is still autonomous (man-centered) if he is going to deny God. I would ask him, “How do you know that logic is eternal?” As a finite being with finite knowledge and finite means of attaining that knowledge, he has no basis to make his claim about something that is infinite by nature (eternity).
3.) “it isn’t…from the universe ”
Response: The same problem of a finite person with finite means of attaining knowledge making a universal claim also applies to the claim that the laws of logic is not from the universe. While I agree that the universe itself did not give us knowledge, as an internal critique of this individual’s worldview, there is no basis for such a person to make a universal claim that the universe did not give us logic since a finite person does not have *UNIVERSAL experience to know that.
Your heart has to ache for those who deny the obvious (the existence of God shown by nature). Sdaly they do this because their eyes are blinded to the truth and they refuse to recognize and submit to a higher authority.
If only they understood that by allowing nature, and the Word to confirm God’s existence, we find ourselves, by faith, submitting to His Lordship and enjoying true freedom with Him.
Lord bless SJ! Thanks for helping us to navigate some difficult waters as we talk to others who refuse to acknowledge His existence.
Amen Rob. Your comment makes me think about Romans 1:18 and following, how people suppress the truth of what God has revealed in His Works and also in HIs Word.
“gently lead” is an excellent preparation in and of itself. I believe a sound argument will be a total failure without a respect for the person you are speaking with. Inflammatory remarks will only damage the process. Although I will gladly defend the gospel, God does not need me to fight for Him. God’s word is truth whether we believe it or now.
The only time Jesus raised his voice was when the pretenders were spouting their poison. I cannot find a single incident where Jesus was nothing less than patient with those who did not believe.
Excellent Post!
A Servant
oops, “we believe it or not”.
I understood what you meant =)
Amen brother; When I was a younger Christian I was much more inflammatory and I try to be as gracious and gentle as possible now in my apologetics, after some serious work of the Lord in my heart a few years ago. It’s a daily struggle to articulate the defense of the faith in a Godly manner with some of the things people will say about God, Jesus and the Bible but I believe God is gracious and gives grace in the content and manner we share the Truth.
In past comments I’d put you at 30-31. I am afraid I didn’t learn this lesson as early. I have grieved the Holy Spirit too often regarding sharing Jesus with love. God had to slow me up and get my attention, boy did He. I am now thankful for that discipline.
“God had to slow me up and get my attention, boy did He. I am now thankful for that discipline.”
Wow that describes exactly the Word I would use to say what He has done to change me! Still very grateful to God for His discipline and change of heart.
Great piece. I agree with the 2 statements above. Like you I use to be more “inflammatory”. Grace and age works wonders. Thanks!
You’re welcome Levi. I’m not perfect and I hope that in standing firm for truth I would be doing so in a Christ like manner.
You have always appeared that you have to me.
Sweet site SlimJim. Will definitely be bookmarking. Keep up the good work!!
Thanks! Thanks for doing so. How did you find the blog brother Paul?
I saw a comment you made on the “Presuppositional Living” over at Choosing Hats. I keep up with the author of the Pure Antithesis blog, and he had wrote that piece as a guest writer apparently.
Anyhoo, saw your comment and clicked the link. Looked around a bit here; got some good stuff.
Nice! Providence…well I’m glad you are bookmarking this =) God bless you Paul.
[…] 5.) Question: Presuppositional apologetics and an Eternal Logic without God?–Our post here earlier this week. […]