Ten days ago I got a comment on my post Who Is God? Trinity Debate: Dr. James White vs Bro. Joe Ventilacion that I want to respond to in this post. For context the original post was a debate between Christian apologist James White and a defender of the cult Iglesia ni Cristo.
Iglesia ni Cristo denies the deity of Christ. In the comment section of my post an individual name “TaTaton90” argued against the divinity of Christ. In this post I want address this specific argument:
Jesus Christ cannot be God and be praying to himself.
Does the fact that Jesus prays to God mean that Jesus is not Divine? I don’t think so. Let me explain.
- First off it is true that Jesus does pray. There’s many verses mentioning Jesus’ act of praying. For example see Luke 3:21, Mark 6:46, Matthew 14:23..
- Secondly it is important that we get our definition of the Trinity right. Why? Because those who are refuting the Trinity need to get the definition right or else they risk the high probability of not refuting the actual doctrine of the Trinity in their arguments but instead commit a straw-man fallacy.
- What is the doctrine of the Trinity? I thought the debate laid out the doctrine of the Trinity well; the doctrine of the Trinity is the doctrine that “within the One Being that is God there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal Persons, namely the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.“
- Equally important is defining the doctrine of Incarnation. The Incarnation is when the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son, became fully a man while still being fully God. Thus, in Jesus He is both God and man; He has both a divine nature and a human nature.
- Its one thing to define a doctrine but another thing to demonstrate that it is Biblical. We see though that the Incarnation is Biblical. The Bible does teach the doctrine of the Incarnation.
- Colossians 2:9 affirms this doctrine when Paul referring to Christ stated “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.“
- We see the doctrine of the incarnation is affirmed in the book of John which is important to interpret Jesus being tired in John 4:6 according to the greater context of the book of John itself. John 1:1 teaches Jesus, whose title include “Word,” is Himself God. As God Jesus is the Creator of all thing according to John 1:3. Then in John 1:14 it affirmed that Jesus as God also became man: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.“
- Bible contradiction here concerning Jesus In light of the fact that Jesus is God incarnate we thus do not have a praying while Jesus is also being a member of the Triune God.
- Jesus has two nature: Divine and human.
- Jesus in His humanity would have human attributes.
- Jesus in His divine nature would have divine attributes.
- Since Jesus is human we should not be surprised that He has a human side that does godly human things such as pray.
- But Jesus’ human nature and divine nature must not be confused.
- While Jesus in His humanity prays to God there’s also not a dilemma of Jesus praying to Himself. Remember the doctrine of the Trinity, there is still the Father and the Spirit that He can communicate to in prayers.
- In fact there’s many Bible passages that specify Jesus was addressing God the Father (and not Himself) when He prayed. See for example Matthew 26:39, 26:42, 26:53, John 14:16, John 16:26, John 17:1.
- Keep in mind Jesus’ act of praying does not minimize His Divinity in terms of His Divine nature nor does it deny His Personhood within the Godhead.
- There is no argument against Jesus’ divinity or the Trinity if one recognizes the categorical fallacy being committed by this argument.
- For more on the Trinity check out our Seventeen Sessions on the Trinity! Audios and Notes.
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The doctrine of the Trinity is difficult, if not impossible, for most people to make sense of. To me, that’s actually a good argument for its validity. If I were going to make up a false doctrine, I’d make it one that most people (including myself)could understand. But God is higher than Man, and as such, He is in large part a mystery that I can’t fully understand, and may not until I see Him face to face.
You make a good point. Its mysterious nature isn’t a sufficient basis to reject it given that God is infinite and not fully comprehensible in every way to the minds of man. Thanks for contributing your insight. This post is currently getting a lot of views and I hope the point you made in your comment is helpful to someone needing help in dealing with objections to the Trinity. Thank you so much for your comment!
Thanks for responding. Have a great weekend.
I’m leading women’s Bible study next week and I’m going over the fundamentals of the faith on the Trinity. The Trinity is deep.
Good refutation of that argument.
Thanks Wally. Hope you have a blessed Saturday; hey I have been meaning to ask do you have to drive far to go to your son’s church?
It’s 15 min. Maybe 20 if slow. That’s one good thing here. We had 20 churches of our work within a half hour. You resting or working today?
This I believe. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit each have a position to fill.:)
Amen to the belief of the Triune God! Also thank you for reblogging this post!
Reblogged this on Logos Speaks.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit = ONE. Period!
Amen!
Well said!
Thanks, brother, for this defense of the Trinity. The deity of Jesus Christ and the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit have always been under attack.
Yeah its been attack so much early on in Church History. Roman Catholic apologists sometimes say the Trinity was formulated through Rome but during church history there were times where even the Triune God was not accepted; so much for the Magisterium…
Interesting that the bishop of Rome was not present at the Council of Nicaea, which was convoked by Constantine.
Very helpful, thank you brother!
Yes–distinct Persons speak to one another and answer one another and do things for one another and send one another–things that could not happen if God was one Person with three titles. (I know that’s a different heresy, but they are related.) Jesus had a human need to pray, showing our need to pray, but that does not prevent him from being wholly divine. J.
Thanks for your comment; I like your point that they really are three “Persons” and persons do personal things like speak to one another, etc. Your comment was a helpful addition to this post. I think the church’s adoption of the term “Person” is fitting to describe the three-ness within God. I appreciate it.
Since you are looking for a good book on the essence of God I recommend Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology.
People do not need to argue the three ‘distinct’ degrees of Light anymore than the three ‘distinct’ Persons of God! (although God is not “limited” in how to best express the Divine). Light is known to be “invisible” and present everywhere. This is a good comparison to our Heavenly Father. Light is also “visible” and illuminating. This is a good comparison to Jesus Christ. Light is also “caloric”. That is, producing of heat and warmth. This is comparable to the Holy Spirit. Although this is a ‘natural analogy’; it does seem to fit quite well. All three ‘distinctions’ are still one and the same Light! Hence all three ‘distinctions’ are also one and the same God individually expressed.Timothy
Excellent!
Our English translations give the singular “God”, but in many of the Hebrew passages, the word is plural (“Elohim”, as opposed to “El”), and at least some of the time refers to both Yehovah and Jesus (and is a title for both).
Good point. I do see you post Bible translations of Genesis so I’m going to ask if you know Hebrew?Also thanks for your good comments on here tonight!
I know some Hebrew; I have a couple Interlinear Bibles and a couple Strong’s Concordances (and some other Hebrew dictionaries/lexicons). I also consult the footnotes (on manuscript variations) in the HRV and NIV.
[…] 7.) Argument against the Trinity? Jesus Prays to God […]
“If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”. Much about the Trinity that we do not understand, but if we don’t believe the Trinity. One God expressed in three persons, then we probably don’t accept other truths which are presented in Scripture. A saving faith is unattainable, or should I say unmaintainable without believing the word. “Faith comethn by hearing and hearing by the word of God” (which one should see as being made flesh in Jesus). Miss-believing the word is akin to twisting it, which leads to one’s own destruction according to Peter. I think that believers are called such because they believe the Scriptures. It’s ok to ask questions because that’s how we learn, but when we arrive at a position contrary to Scriptures overall -hear a little, there a little teaching, as do the cults; then we are disbelievers rather than believers. Good post Jim.
Jerry you touched on the heart of the matter of unbelief in your comment and that supplement our post and I agree 100%. Your point that if one denies the Bible’s teaching of the Trinity we would also deny other doctrines found In Scripture can be observed with anti-Trinitarian groups deny teachings such as salvationby grace and the person of Christ. Mormons, JWs, INC, the Way International, etc., are examples of that. Thanks brother for your comment, always appreciate you sharing your thoughts on my blog!
Thanks Jim, I appreciate your efforts here.
A psychologist once told me that a person’s identity is multifaceted. Each part of their personality is a part of the whole, and there will be an identity in authority of the others. In a normal person, there is no problem with communication (albeit subconscious) between these facets. This is the way I think of The Trinity. God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit are the different ways that God Presents Himself to us. All Totally God, with Christ being God’s Word and His Expression of Himself. That’s the way I understand it, anyway.
There is Only ONE TRUE GOD ( JEHOVAH-YAWHEH ) the FATHER and, ONE SON ( Yeshua-Jesus Christ-Messiah ), and ONE ( HOLY GHOST–HOLY SPIRIT ) PRAISE Them and They’re All THREE in ONE!! Sing Glory Hallelujah and Maranatha!!
Love ❤ Always and Shalom, YSIC \o/
Kristi Ann
Good post