For today’s post we will tackle the question the Skeptic Annotated Bible asked: Should we rend our clothes?
Here are the two answers which the skeptic believes indicate a Bible contradiction:
Yes.
“since your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants, that they would become an object of horror and a curse, and you have torn your clothes and wept before Me, I have indeed heard you,’ declares the Lord.”” (2 Kings 22:19)
“Because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before God when you heard His words against this place and its inhabitants, and because you humbled yourself before Me, tore your clothes, and wept before Me, I have indeed heard you,” declares the Lord.” (2 Chronicles 34:27)
“A time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to be silent and a time to speak.” (Ecclesiastes 3:7)
No.
“Yet even now,” declares the Lord, “Return to Me with all your heart, And with fasting, weeping, and mourning; 13 And tear your heart and not merely your garments.” Now return to the Lord your God, For He is gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger, abounding in mercy And relenting of catastrophe.” (Joel 2:12-13)
“Now it happened, when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, that he sent word to the king, saying, “Why did you tear your clothes? Just have him come to me, and he shall learn that there is a prophet in Israel.” (2 Kings 5:8)
(All Scriptural quotation comes from the New American Standard Bible)
Here’s a closer look at whether or not there is a contradiction:
- When dealing with skeptics’ claim of Bible contradictions it seems one can never be reminded enough of what exactly is a contradiction. A contradiction occurs when two or more claims conflict with one another so that they cannot simultaneously be true in the same sense and at the same time. To put it another way, a Bible contradiction exists when there are claims within the Bible that are mutually exclusive in the same sense and at the same time.
- One should be skeptical of whether this is a Bible contradiction given the Skeptic Annotated Bible’s track record of inaccurately handling the Bible. See the many examples of their error which we have responded to in this post: Collection of Posts Responding to Bible Contradictions. Of course that does not take away the need to respond to this claim of a contradiction, which is what the remainder of this post will do. But this observation should caution us to slow down and look more closely at the passages cited by the Skeptic Annotated Bible to see if they interpreted the passages properly to support their conclusion that it is a Bible contradiction.
- The skeptic tries to pit three passages (2 Kings 22:19, 2 Chronicles 34:27, Ecclesiastes 3:7) as affirming the claim “We should rend our clothes” against two passages (Joel 2:12-13, 2 Kings 5:8) as affirming “We should not rend our clothes.” By “rend” the skeptic means ripping one’s clothes. The skeptic is using the language of the King James Version here.
- Taking the skeptics’ two stated claims of what the Bible teaches at face value we don’t have a Bible contradiction to begin with.
- In order to contradict the first claim “We should rend our clothes” logically the contradictory claim would have to be “We should never rend our clothes.” The skeptic self-admits the second opposing claim is “We should not rend our clothes” but that is not the same thing as the claim “We should never rend our clothes.” It is not contradictory because there can be times we should rend our clothes and other times we should not rend our clothes.
- In order to contradict the second claim “We should not rend our clothes” logically the contradictory claim would have to be “We should always rend our clothes.” The skeptic self-admits the first opposing claim is “We should rend our clothes” but that is not the same thing as the claim “We should always rend our clothes.” It is not contradictory because there can be times we should rend our clothes and other times we should not rend our clothes.
- My point that there is not a Bible contradiction because biblically there can be times when people should rend their clothes and other times when they should not rend their clothes is supported by the Ecclesiastes 3:7 which the skeptic cited. I know the skeptic cited Ecclesiastes 3:7 as supporting the claim “We should rend our clothes” but the actual passage states “A time to tear apart and a time to sew together” which technically support both claims “We should rend our clothes” and “We should not rend our clothes.” Of course when we do either depends upon the context and the situation. Just as the second half of the Ecclesiastes 3:7 states there is “a time to be silent and a time to speak” so there is “A time to tear apart” and times we shouldn’t tear them apart.
- The other four passages that the skeptics cited should be interpreted as different moments of when people should or should not tear/rend their clothes.
- Note 2 Kings 22:19 is not a command to tear our clothes though God approved King Josiah tearing his clothes. In the context this is a prophetess having a message for King Josiah (v.14-18). Earlier Josiah heard God’s Word being read in verse 10. King Josiah’s response was to tear his clothes (v.11) out of his distress for the sins of his people which prompted him to search for God (see verse 13). God in verse 19 states to Josiah that “you have torn your clothes and wept before Me, I have indeed heard you” and God said to him directly he knew the motivation for the tearing of the clothes was because “you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants,“
- 2 Chronicles 34:27 is a parallel account of King Josiah and the event recorded in 2 Kings 22 so everything in point 7 applies here.
- Joel 2:12-13 does not contradict both 2 Kings 22:19 and 2 Chronicles 34:27. Joel 2:12-13 shows that tearing one’s clothes as an act of genuine repentance from one’s heart is something God approves of in agreement with 2 Kings 22:19 and 2 Chronicles 34:27. Note how verse 12 explicitly mentioned “Return to Me with all your heart, And with fasting, weeping, and mourning.” When verse 13 talks about tearing one’s clothes it doesn’t even condemn tearing one’s clothes per se, in of itself but it exhorts that one should also “tear one’s heart” in the sense of having a contrite spirit before the Lord.
- In 2 Kings 5:8 we have Elisha the prophet rebuke a king who tore his clothes. But one must account for the reason why the king tore his clothes. In 2 Kings 5:7 it states the king tore his clothes when the letter from Syrian Army captain name Namaan asked to meet with the prophet Elisha in order to be healed of his leprosy. The problem was the king tore his clothes out of lack of faith in God. So obviously that motivation to tear his clothes is a problem. Thus Elisha is used by God to voice disapproval with the king tearing his clothes.
- Thus there is no contradiction here. Seems like the skeptics need to learn from our post How to Handle Bible Contradictions.
- We shouldn’t miss that worldviews are at play even with the skeptic’s objection to Christianity. The worldview of the author of the Skeptic Annotated Bible actually doesn’t even allow for such a thing as the law of non-contradiction to be meaningful and intelligible. In other words for him to try to disprove the Bible by pointing out that there’s a Bible contradiction doesn’t even make sense within his own worldview. Check out our post “Skeptic Annotated Bible Author’s Self-Defeating Worldview.”
[…] Should we rend our clothes? […]
Good point, Jim! It is all or nothing at all (taking cue from points 4-6). Excited, the skeptic probably did not thought about it and added this in his book. Blessings to you and your family!
I think you are right the skeptic was probably excited to see a potential contradiction and just ran with it. Of course the incentive to double check and verify if it’s a contradiction is less for the skeptic than the incentive to pass this off as another Bible contradiction. I believe something like this is what happened. Have a blessed rest brother thanks for checking up on this blog and commenting before you go to sleep! Appreciate it!
The skeptic knows that once he shares it the trolls or those in rebellion with GOD can make an unverified allegation as logical and truth.
Excellent! Love the very straightforward analysis here.
Blessings.
Does it seem to you that Ecclesiastes 3:7 might straddle both “yes” and “no?” “Yes” in that it calls us to “A time to tear apart” and “no” in that it calls us to “A time to be silent and a time to speak.”
I think Ecclesiastes 3:7 definitely should be under both yes and no as you pointed out! Good observation! I mentioned this point you brought up in point number 5. The skeptics are rather silly here in my opinion.
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
Reblogged this on Love and Love Alone.
Hey, Jimmy! This was terrible on the part of the skeptic. An absolute disgrace. I at least try to reason/think like the skeptic as to how they come to their positions, but none of these are contradictions! Only in the world of the skeptic does context either not matter or does not exist. As you said only Josiah is the same event written in two different places and that is most certainly not a contradiction as it reiterates the same event, repentance.
When I saw Ecclesiastes I had to laugh, the whole point of that passage is as you mentioned, everything has its season. I completely agree with you. So many people (unbelievers and believers) want the Bible, especially the Old Testament to be either/or, yes/no. Context is king!
Joel is a different event altogether. Joel chapter 2 is talking about the Day of the Lord which as Christians know is largely eschatological. Like you said, this is all about repentance. Duane Garrett notes, “this is the only place where a prophet calls on them to tear their hearts and not their garments. Ritual repentance, however fervently carried out, is of no use if the heart is unchanged” (Joel, NAC, p. 346). Because context is king, I hope it’s ok to add this. Anytime in the Old Testament you read about God being gracious and merciful one is immediately reminded of Ex 34:6-7 where God gave Moses a second copy of the Ten Commandments after the first were broken by Moses in his righteous anger over the Golden Calf (Ex 33). Garrett also goes on to say that “Joel in effect reminded his people that Yahweh was the God of second chances” (p. 346).
2 Kings 5:8 is also a non issue. The king of the northern kingdom of Israel has no faith. The spiritual bankruptcy of the northern kingdom will be on full display as Naaman a pagan Syrian comes to place his faith in Yahweh.
Thank you for your absolute thorough and start forward debunking of this alleged contradiction!
Thanks for this excellent comment! In particular your comment on Joel 2 really add more meat to the discussion! I appreciate it you shared the context, the main theme of the book and cited Garett’s commentary! Thank you for that as I imagine you spend some time on the comment there! Praying for your research and work for the professor!
How are you feeling? This makes me want to return for another Masters degree; however, I don’t know where!! Would love some prayer for however God leads you with this!
Thanks for the thorough refutation. For the sake of his intellect I can only “hope” that Stephen/Steve Wells is being guileful by presenting this as a contradiction.
I’ll be praying for that co-worker, that things won’t become a bigger problem in the long run. That’s unfortunate!
Thanks, brother. The boss just changed our processes, which means I’m now more reliant on that angry guy to get my job done. Not good.
Looking at the Skeptic Annotated Bible site what nags me is how little talk the skeptic has of the context, and that is telling.
Well said.
Thanks! I’m still paying to God that Steve Wells get saved as he’s getting up there in age and show no sign of desire to repent from his slander of the Bible. Anything I can pray for you for these days Bonnie?
For Strength to weather the storm that is coming.:)
Well said, Slim! I see no contradiction and I am highly in favor of rending our clothes…..when the time is right! 🙂
Thanks for your comment! I don’t think there is a contradiction here also (obviously). Speaking of “rending clothes” I tried to “unmasks” the skeptic here if you catch my drift…lol
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Excellent work and presentation refuting the foolishness of a skeptic that has no idea what he is talking about.
Have a blessed weekend.
Thanks for reading this. After so many of these Bible contradictions we look at I think it’s demonstrated that the skeptic who author SAB really don’t know what he’s talking about as you said! Good point! When you evangelize how often do people do there’s contradictions in the Bible?
We had a few over the years, as you can imagine. Your posts have been helpful.
Blessings to you and your precious family.
I think we can say you tore down this skeptical objection
Very interesting, thank you for sharing this post SlimJim.
Well stated
Thanks! Praying for your move and future body of Christ
This is a respectful reply to an atheist. Most Christian response to the skeptics are qualitatively different than the atheists’ “scholarship”
Thank you for your great faith and understanding of the scriptures which enables you to sift through these “contradictions” which are not, of course, really contradictions. Many wish to surmise such “conflicts” in God Word so they do not feel dread when they deny The Lord’s Truths and dine upon their own conjurings.
Thanks sister for reading this and that encouraging comment! Hope your Sunday and day is going well?
Yeah, going super well. Just sleepy cuz I got up at 3am and couldn’t go back to sleep.
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