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Jaeson Ma with Paris Hilton

Jaeson Ma with Paris Hilton

In the past I have written about a false prophet and so called “pastor” and “missionary” (according to Wikipedia) name Jaeson Ma which have been compiled in a section under my post “Strange Fire: Problems in Asia Series” including one of how he is the epitome of the unbiblical Hipster and ‘Celebrity’ Pastor.  That last link I wrote nearly five years ago and one may wonder if Jaeson Ma’s have gotten better or worse.

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Funny-Sleeping-Bag

About a month ago someone commented on my post concerning Jaeson Ma’s New Song “Rise and Fall” being unbiblical.  The issue is with my charge of Jaeson Ma being Pelagian.  The original comment can be read by clicking here.  The commentator, a “James Jordan” whose blog name is Descriptive Grace, is no stranger of commenting on our blog and displaying irrationality.

Here’s my response to his comment:

Hey James,
Please read carefully and don’t misrepresent others and engage in ad hominem. You have a history of doing this on our blog (my previous response can be found herehttps://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/a-fallacious-versus-a-proper-use-of-ad-hominem-argumentation/). This is your second strike and with the thIrd strike you’re out.

1.) “Are you sure you realize this? Because I don’t think you do.”

Response: If you think that I’m expecting a three point sermon from his song, marshal forth a quote demonstrating that I expect that of Jaeson Ma. Please don’t twist my words either.

2.) “Whatever happened to I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengthens me”? I guess you Marcionites removed that from your copy of the Pauline Corpus. Its in your nature to mutilate scripture.”

Response: First off I don’t know what’s with the straw man fallacy you are committing when you charge me with being a Marcionite as I don’t believe that verse should be removed from Philippians (or the Bible for that matter). Nor does my post here even imply anything of that sort. I believe what Philippians 4:13 teaches by the way. Secondly, what does this passage have to do with the subject at hand in a post dealing with Jaeson Ma’s music video being heretical? Ma didn’t cite that verse in the song nor paraphrased it, so obviously I didn’t bring up Philippians 4:13 either. I don’t know what’s your thinking here, but if you think this post was silent on Philippians 4:13 imply I don’t believe in the truth taught there then you are committing a fallacy of argument from silence buddy.

3.) “If this was Pelagian, would he admit that we all fall short?”

Response: I see you are implying in your argument that if Jaeson Ma admit all fall short morally/spiritually then he cannot be a Pelagian. But the song’s topic of “fall” isn’t talking about sin or a moral fall per me but a much more general fall in the sense of a disappointment or being “down.” Jaeson Ma clearly says “we all fall short” between 2:27-28. But did you listen to the context? It’s sandwhiched in a verse beginning in 2:15 that talks about the will to rise and get up, be courageous (an activity of the will), etc. Thus, it’s not a fall of Romans 3:23 (of sin). Note again the emphasis on the will.

4.) “You knee-jerk jerks just like caling everone Pelagians, like little kids who just learned a new big word.”

Response: First off, where did I call everyone else Pelagians? Secondly, what’s with your ad hominem attack of calling me “knee-jerk jerks” and “little kids who just learned a new big word”? Thirdly, I don’t know why you are addressing me in the plural. I assume you are attacking those who blog here and not just myself, the writer of this post on Jaeson Ma. Way to go with your guilt by association fallacy for the other two guys. Fourthly, say for the sake of the argument I am a little kid who just learned a new big word. Is this the right way and godly response?

5.) “But I don’t like the song. In fact, it sounds Calvinist to me, and that’s why I hate it. Paraphrasing the song “We rise and fall, no big deal, nobody’s perfect, we’re all born sinners, so sin is nothing, no big deal, cheap grace will handle it–we rise and fall–get over it.””

Response: First off, what you paraphrase don’t sound Calvinistic (in popular usage of the term). I think the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that Calvinism essentially subscribes to the belief (a) “sin is nothing,” as in “no big deal,”(b) “cheap grace will handle” sin, (c) and regards to whatever that ambiguous “rise and fall” is in Calvinism (which you need to clarify), we should “get over it.” Secondly, your paraphrase of the song is inaccurate; for instance, where in the song does Jaeson Ma assert “we’re all born sinners”? At 54-55 seconds, Jaeson Ma did say “We may have sinned…” but that doesn’t lead to the conclusion that therefore means all have sinned in the same way Pelagians can believe there are those who may sin but that doesn’t mean all have sinned (to go back to response 3 to your own admission about all having sinned is incompatible with Pelagianism). Also, where in the song does he mentioned cheap grace at all? Or quote what lines that lead you to assume “cheap grace”? I might have missed it so help me out if I’m mistaken which can happen.

6.) “The non-Christian worldview is the Calvinist worldview secularized: sin ain’t no big thing. Pelagianism viewed sin as a big deal.”

Response: Again, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate this mispresentation of Calvinism seeing sin as no big deal. By the way do you think that your sins committed here of misrepresenting others and personal attacks “ain’t no big thing?”

7.) “You Calvinists have perverted the term ‘Pelagian’ like you pervet so many terms (Sovereignty comes to mind) so to you Pelagian means some limp-wristed doofus who says ‘just be a moral person.’ That’s not what Pelagius himself or any of his associates taught.”

Response: Jaeson Ma’s gospel here is Pelagian in the sense that it believes in the power of the will, which he assumes reside generally among his listening public (Christian and non-Christian). Jaeson Ma’s song is essentially Pelagian in that regards. See below #8.

8.) “so to you Pelagian means some limp-wristed doofus who says ‘just be a moral person.’ That’s not what Pelagius himself or any of his associates taught. You’re using the term ‘Pelagian’ to mean a Deist. Pelagius was no Deist.”

Response: Technically Deist refers to those who view a God knowable by reason with the rejection of God’s supernatural revelation. Should I assert the same kind of rhethoric you use here against yourself (how ironic) that you “pervert” this term? But I get what you mean by the popular term Deist to refer to those who thinks the point of God and religion is just to be a moral person. My observation of how you use the handle “Deism” in popular parlance leads me to ask the question: Why is it there a double standard on your part when I use the common understanding of the term Pelagian?

9.) “Pelagius believed that you had to believe in Jesus and be baptized. He just believed you did those things by free will.”

Sounds like Jaeson Ma’s belief matches Pelagius, knowing of his Passion Church baptizing people and the theme of his song here on the will (not to mention his preaching). It’s just he focuses and emphasize everyone having the same will power able to exercise the will to rise–or fall and rise after the fall.

10.) “he was a credobaptist”
Pelagius was Credo-Baptist? Help me to document this from his writing. I thought his letter to Innocent I repudiate the charge that he didn’t baptize children: “”there are certain subjects about which some men are trying to vilify me. One of these is, that I refuse to infants the
sacrament of baptism,” and “”[I have been] defamed by certain persons for [supposedly] refusing the sacrament of baptism to infants, and
promising the kingdom of heaven irrespective of Christ’s redemption. [I have] never heard even an impious heretic
say this about infants. Who indeed is so unacquainted with Gospel lessons, as not only to attempt to make such an
affirmation, but even to be able to lightly say it or even let it enter his thought? And then who is so impious as to wish
to exclude infants from the kingdom of heaven, by forbidding them to be baptized and to be born again in Christ?”

Again, your comments is far from being descriptive of grace and care.

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humpty_dumpty!

“Pastor” Jaeson Ma of the New Apostolic Reformation movement has released a new music video called “Rise and Fall.”  At core it’s a Pelagian gospel instead of a Biblical gospel.

To begin with note what is omitted in the video:  The Gospel of how Jesus Christ actually saves us from our sins through Christ’s death, burial and Resurrection.

Now I realize that not every Christian song must be a three point sermon.  I’m not imposing a harsh standard that he has to use theological terminology like “Extra calvinisticum,”  “Supralapsarian” and “Asiety.”

The criticism here is more than nit-picking on what Jaeson Ma omitted; I don’t want to conclude that Jaeson Ma’s new song is heretical based merely on an argument from silence since that would be fallacious. We must also see what is in the content of the actual song: What is it’s message?

We must ask what is every song’s message or “gospel.”  Every song does reflect a worldview; the question is, which one does it reflect, the Christian worldview or a non-Christian worldview?

But how can we discern a song’s worldview?  Ask yourself, what does the song say about

  1. Man–Is he basically good or sinful (as Romans 3:10, 3:23 teaches)?
  2. God–Is He all Love without Holiness or is He Holy, and a God of Love and Wrath?
  3. The Problem–Is man’s basic problem with sin or something else?
  4. The Solution–Is Jesus the Savior or something else has become our functional gods and saviors?

Note what Jaeson Ma says between 3:16-26:

I know I made some mistakes in my life, No matter what you do right, no matter what you do wrong, you got to know you’re just human.”

Just “mistakes?”  God has revealed in the Bible that we have more than just mistakes–we have serious sins against Him.  It’s not picking on word choice–note also after pointing out how “no matter what you do wrong,” Jaeson Ma wants to comfort his hearers with the fact that “you got to know you’re just human.”  Does the Bible ever give that as a solution for man’s wrong doing and sin–to just know we are humans?  Is knowing we are humans then make everything wrong okay?

What a terrible means of justification; it’s fall short of being Biblical.

Note what  else is in minute 3:16.  The back ground lyrics between 3:16-24 says

You can knock me down I’ll get up standing tall, we rise and fall.”

Sounds like Moralistic Therapeutic Theism to me with its emphasis on one’s own effort.  The whole song has that theme but it’s at minute 3:16 that the content clearly is antithetical to gospel both with what Jaeson Ma has to say and the background chorus.  Come to think of it, it’s ironic that Jaeson Ma’s 3:16 is contrary to John 3:16, since one presuppose sin (John 3:17) while Ma present Moralistic Therapeutic Theism assurance that we’re just human.

That is not the Biblical Gospel since the Bible shares that the Gospel is about Jesus Christ who died and rise for our sins when Adam and all mankind has fallen.

The most disturbing part of the song that brings the brightest clarity that Jaeson Ma is preaching the Gospel of Pelagianism is towards the end of the song between 3:35-42:

Hold on to Hope.  Know that inside of you, there’s something good, so rise up.”

Jaeson Ma’s message is contrary to the biblical understanding of man’s total depravity.  Note how his lyrics contradict Romans 3:1-12:

as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

No doubt some might object that Jaeson Ma’s song can’t be heretical because it has a picture of Jesus.  Merely having a picture of Jesus doesn’t make one song Christian.  The question is whether or not the song is faithful to Jesus’ message.

In conclusion, Jaeson Ma’s Pelagian gospel attempt to rise, but it fall because of his lack of depth in understanding about the Fall.

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Jaeson Ma Aziatix controversy

Earlier I wrote a post identifying the fruits of Prosperity Gospel and extreme Charistmatics preachers and how it reveals their functional idol.   Among the “fruits” mentioned is an infatuation of trying to enter the entertainment industry.   I think the preachers in the reality show, “Preachers of LA,” is an example of my thesis and another case study is the anti-nominian, false prophet and Pastor Jaeson Ma.

Although Jaeson Ma retains the title “Pastor” (see this video of him in Malaysia), he has been spending most of his time being a musical artist.  And for Jaeson Ma that means hanging out with artists, music industry reps and insiders.  Of course, there is nothing wrong in of itself reaching out to people who are lost and being their companions so long as one doesn’t compromise their belief and behavior before the Lord.  Has Jaeson Ma been above reproach?  Here I am not merely trying to catch him on a “slip-up,” a moment of weakness when he fails to be consistent to the standard he holds to;  rather, I’m trying to ask a more foundational question, of whether it is biblical with his particular approach in associating with those in the Asian entertainment industry?  I’m more concern about the method driving him than an inconsistency to one’s method since after all, we are all prone to sin and deviate from our professed standard.

One such association (among many) that Jaeson has is with the group Aziatix.  Note Jaeson Ma’s facebook:

Here I quote again what Jaeson Ma wrote just in case the picture on facebook disappear:

Ones up to the sky with @aziatixallday at their new music video shoot single produced by @redone_official They are the first Asian American group signed to @ymcmbofficial (Young Money) and they didn’t get here by chance these four brothers got here by faith. Faith is spelled R.I.S.K. & I saw how each of these men risked it all to follow God and start @aziatix this is just the beginning & I’m serious when I ask all of you following me to pray daily for them as they make this God given music and shine light in the darkness. Aziatix all day!!!!! #salute #respect #proud #pray4aziatix

Note how Jaeson Ma describe this group as following God, having faith, being a light and them taking risk for Him in their musical career.

Apparently, this prompted one of Jaeson Ma’s fan to comment his concern about Aziatix:

Those guys have such amazing music n talent, its crazy. They are humble brothers, though not to hate just being honest, their album Awakening is amazing, but Godly isnt on the menu, especially one of the songs talking about taking some other guys girl and clubbing.

One can find online and read Aziatix lyrics and it seems that Jaeson’s fan had this particular song in mind.

Jaeson Ma’s response is very telling:

Michael what you need to understand is that music is a gift from God that expresses emotion, experience and personal truth for each artist. A song can talk about God explicitly or not explicitly. I personally don’t believe music should be categorized as Christian or not, what matters is that the music is good, is true to ones experience and honest. Sadly most so called Christian music is not honest or authentic, rather it is predictable and created in a certain way to fit a specific religious expectation. Study the gospels and you will see that when Jesus spoke to the masses He didn’t use religious jargon or language, but He spoke in parables with culturally relevant stories that the everyday person could relate with. When Jesus spoke to His disciples He spoke plainly about kingdom truths. there is music inspired by God for the world and there is also music inspired by God for the church, neither one is more acceptable than another. What God loves is that we use our musical talents by, through and for Him, Aziatix is doing just that and before casting a stone of judgment you should spend more time praying for them then judging them or any musician because you don’t know where they are coming from. I really do pray that people who follow Christ would follow His example of loving and appreciating each person human experience, for the only judgment Jesus made was against the religious who saw themselves as better and holier than others. With that being said, Aziatix all day and much respect to my man Jae Chong and the whole crew! God bless & God is love!

What are we to make of his comment?

Point 1: Note how Jaeson Ma comment doesn’t address his fan’s chief concern at all, that Aziatix’ musical content isn’t godly with the specific example of girls and clubbing.  Ma doesn’t even acknowledge his fan’s concern but goes off in a different direction.  He is committing the logical fallacy of red-herring.

 Point 2:  Jaeson said, “A song can talk about God explicitly or not explicitly.”  It seems reasonable that not every song has to be about God explicitly.  Moreover, if every song was about God explicitly there’s nothing wrong with it.  But what if the band’s entire musical career has never explicitly shared about Jesus and the Gospel at all?  How could Jaeson describe them as taking risks and who “shine light in the darkness”?

Point 3: Jaeson said: ” I personally don’t believe music should be categorized as Christian or not, what matters is that the music is good, is true to ones experience and honest.”  Note here that what matters for Jaeson is not the category of Christian and non-Christian but whether it’s “true to ones experiences and honest.”  But how do we know if that person’s experience was honest?  Or is really true?  Here it is important to see that there is a need for a Christian worldview to be worked out and applied to the area of music–and that in order to even talk about “honest” music even require things that ultimately can only make sense in a Christian worldview.

Point 4: Jaeson points out how “Sadly most so called Christian music is not honest or authentic, rather it is predictable and created in a certain way to fit a specific religious expectation.”  I’ll grant that, but what does this “wrong” have to do Aziatix’s worldliness in their music?  We must also remember that two “wrongs” don’t make a right.

Point 5: Jaeson Ma asserts that “Jesus spoke to the masses He didn’t use religious jargon or language,” which is quite unbiblical if one were to realize Jesus’ claim to being the Messiah involve Messianic titles there were explicitly religious and Scriptural (Old Testament) in nature!  One must understand that titles such as “Christ,” “Son of Man,” “Son of God” is rooted in the Old Testament!

Point 6: Jaeson also present a false dilemma between using “religious jargon or language” and speaking in ways “that the everyday person could relate with. ” The two are not mutually exclusive!

Point 7: Jaeson is begging the question when he asserts “What God loves is that we use our musical talents by, through and for Him, Aziatix is doing just that…”  One can’t really make a song for Him that glorifies Him if one goes about it in a worldy way or end up glorifying the lust of the eyes, and the love for this World.

Point 8: Jaeson use a popular line used by those who engage in verse abuse: “and before casting a stone of judgment you should spend more time praying for them then judging them or any musician because you don’t know where they are coming from.”  In essence, “Don’t judge,” says Jaeson Ma, who a few lines ago was the same one who said “most so called Christian music is not honest or authentic..[and] fit a specific religious expectation.”  If one looks at the context of Matthew 7 where the verse of not judging comes from, one will realize it’s against hypocritical judgement.  Jesus points out the irony of someone with a larger serious problem pointing out someone’s lesser problem in Matthew 7:3.  I submit such is the case with Jaeson Ma: When a fan points out the problem of his “spiritual” promotion of a band that’s worldly, he goes ahead and points out the speck that’s in the musical “authenticity” of Christian music.  He needs to remove his log out of his own eye!

Point 9:  Again the irony:  “for the only judgment Jesus made was against the religious who saw themselves as better and holier than others.”  Isn’t this truly the case that when a fan points out the issue of holiness and godliness, Jaeson Ma then proceed to make himself better and holier than his fan’s biblical conviction of being holy (set apart)?

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jaesonma

We have written in the past concerning the Charismatic preacher turned Music Artist Jaeson Ma.  Although Jaeson Ma is no longer actively pastoring, he still preaches though it seems that he has been focusing more on his career with entertainment in the Asian and Asian American market than pastoring.

I think one cannot understand Jaeson Ma without understand the root that is driving his theology and specifically of his root with the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR).

On the Elijah List, a website that collects Charistmatic and Third Wave types of “prophecies,” one find that Cindy Jacob’s claim of Jaeson Ma as a “son in the Lord”:

Cindy Jacobs: God Says: “I Want My People to Pray In a New Pentecost that will Sweep the Face of the Earth”
by Cindy Jacobs
Apr 15, 2010

On December 31, 2009, the Holy Spirit spoke through me and said, “I’m going to shake the earth. You will begin to see earthquakes—I am going to shake everything that can be shaken. Look where the earthquakes are hitting because God is going to release a wind of Pentecost in those places.”


Another place of shaking was Los Angeles, California. Jaeson Ma, my son in the Lord…

Accessed here: http://www.elijahlist.com/words/html/textonly-041510-Jacobs.html

Cindy Jacobs is herself a false prophet.  That has been documented by Sandy Simpson and another example of her failed predication can also be seen here.

So in dealing with Jaeson Ma’s theology, one must come to grasp and refute the New Apostolic Reformation.  Check out the following link with many helpful articles HERE.

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Among other things, John MacArthur’s Strange Fire Conference has touched on the false teachings of the Prosperity Gospel.  It’s influence among Charistmatic circles is huge.  Known as the Word of Faith/Name-it-Claim-it/Blab-it-Grab-it theology, the impact of such teachings has dangerous spiritual repercussions and even at it’s best is a distraction from the Gospel (though I would add that its focus on the wrong things actually undermine the message and priority of the Gospel).

Over the years we have documented on our blog some of the dangerous fruits of Third Wave Continuationists and the Prosperity Gospel; and the fruits are not pretty.

I’m convinced that at the root of the problem with the Prosperity Gospel is the issue of idolatry.  That is, it’s an issue of who it is that is one’s God.  The functional god of those who are preachers and “parishioners” of the Prosperity Gospel is not the God of the Bible: it is the idolatry of the Self.  Let me explain with this illustration:

Idol of Prosperity Gospel Preacher

Until one identifies the root that’s driving the bad fruits, one can’t fully repent from the Prosperity Gospel since they don’t know what they must be turning away from.

The prosperity Gospel appeal to the carnal self.  It is all about pleasing the self and seeking gains for the pleasures of the self.  As a result, one shouldn’t be surprise to see the following fruits:

1.) An Emphasis on Subjective “Spiritual” Experiences versus the Word of God.  It’s experience-based rather than expositionally-based upon the Word of God.   And within Charismatic Word of Faith paradigm, the more supernatural the experience supposedly is, the better.  It becomes almost like a drug, an addiction to the spiritual experience itself rather than God Himself.  For some, one goes on religious roller coasters, where most of their life is in a spiritual slump until they wait for the next big high.  I believe that most of today’s speaking in tongues, getting slain in the spirit, holy laughter, “prophesying,” visions and “healing” spawn from this.  This also explains why so many false prophecies made in Pentecostal circles often are forgotten by those who hear them, because they are already looking for the next fixing for their veins of new “word” or predictions.

2.) Prosperity Gospel.  Having it’s mooring away from the Bible, advocates and believers of the Prosperity Gospel now have their discernment down.  With the idol of the self, a message of health and wealth appeals to their carnal wishes.  It tickles their ears.  Plus it’s about experiences and the experiences of the here and now-so why can’t we have the best of our life now?  Oh, should one also be surprise at tales of corruption behind the profits of prophets of the Prosperity Gospel?

3.) Infatuation of entering the entertainment industry.  Having now become materially driven, one now wants to be as successful in acquiring prosperity as they possibly can reach for.  For the best of the best in the circles of Prosperity Gospel, the sky is the limit but practically the sky is Hollywood:  think of what other industry brings the greatest fame, recognition and temptation of riches and luxury?  So with the supposed cover of wanting to reach out to Hollywood for Christ on a bigger platform, worldly methods and values are adopted in order to be part of the missionary effort to the entertainment industry and worldly goals and measure of success are adopted as well.  All this, while a bit of generic non-confrontational spiritual “Christian-ese” is sprinkled in one’s twitter and Facebook page, packaged for the mass amount of consumption possible.  Matter fact, often times prosperity preachers began small, who in desiring to be famous for being famous, they see twitter and other social media as the training wheels for developing fans responding to their selfies.

4.) Sexual immorality.  It can begin “innocent” enough with little efforts at mimicking the entertainment industry.  Or what you wear to indicate your prosperity by their fashion.  But if you are already feeding the Gods of self by appeasing it’s appetite of health and wealth, and fame and game, why hold back and be tame when it comes to sex?  Should we be surprise at why preachers of prosperity gospel have such heinous reputation of sexual immorality?

Don’t we see this being true at level three or four with those who are in the show Preachers of L.A., Kong Hee, Sun Ho and Jaeson Ma?

If any one sees this as a description of themselves, and God is convicting them, be warned by the Apostle Paul in Phillipians 3:19:

Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.”

See your sins for what they are, repent, surrender yourself so that Jesus would be the Lord and Savior of your life.  Jesus Christ has died on the Cross and His blood is the source of our forgiveness.  Have truth faith in God’s grace alone through Christ alone to save us.

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INTRODUCTION

I first wrote about Jaeson Ma’s failed prophecy back in July 2011 and since then the feedback I’ve gotten over the past year have been somewhat surprising.  I started to notice that some of the objections people had were being repeated again and again so I wrote A SPECIFIC ENTRY  addressing them because, as I stated earlier, it would provide

an easy way to offer a link for the frequently brought up objections defending Ma, so that I don’t have to keep on writing them again and again,

Under that entry, I recently received an usually long comment (21 paragraphs of 1,844 words) from someone using the handle “Brother” that objected to my claim of Jaeson Ma being a false prophet.  Realizing that it would take a while to respond, I decided to put that comment on hold and pending for approval so as to avoid perpetrating theological confusion left unanswered while I was busy.  That was on May 16th.  I admit, I have been slow in my response.  So on June 6th, I got this second comment from “Brother”:

Hey bud,

It looks like my post is missing. I think it would speak a lot to your integrity to post a reply soon. It would also say a lot if you didn’t.

Cheers

Again, I have to admit I should have responded earlier.  For that I am sorry.  With all the hub of activity in my personal/work life and the buzz on Veritas Domain the last few weeks (election, apologetics, questions, other objections on other issues), I’ve pretty much forgotten about the whole matter.  Seeing that “Brother” has made the whole affair a question of my integrity, the following is my response to the issues he’s raised.  I do think it is ironic that a slow response to “Brother” has become an issue of my integrity while someone uttering a false prophecy our “Brother” here believes should be granted immunity from their character and integrity being questioned.  I will be addressing “Brother” directly in my response (hence the “you” in the response, though I’m not necessarily talking about “you” the reader).

RESPONSES

1.) “I’d like to suggest that you’ve misunderstood the situation because your understanding of NT prophets is incorrect.”

Concerning a misunderstanding of NT prophecy, I honestly think the situation is really the other way around, but more on that later.

2.) “Due to this misunderstanding, you’ve mistakenly attributed this situation to someone’s poor character rather than what I believe it really is, a maturing and (perhaps at times overly)dramatic personality.”

First off, just so I know and to ensure that we are on the same page, I wonder what specifically are the “poor character” that I attribute to Jaeson Ma concerning his false prophecy.  I think the burden of proof is on you to document and cite what “poor character” that I have attributed to Jaeson Ma AS THE CAUSE of his fail prediction.  I’m afraid that your charge against me might be too general and one can easily read into this that you are accusing me of Ad Hominem fallacies.  Secondly, I don’t think my primary focus has been on Jaeson Ma’s poor character but rather it has been about the false prophecies Jaeson Ma made and the subsequent approach towards his ministry in light of it.  Thirdly, if it’s wrong to attribute Ma’s prophecy about the Tsunami hitting LA as an issue of “poor character” (to use your words), are you not doing the same thing when you stated that you ” believe it really is, a maturing and (perhaps at times overly)dramatic personality,” and later below say that it’s an issue for need of sanctification on Jaeson Ma’s part?  To say that the prediction is an issue of overly dramatic personality is to say something about someone’s character.  I think you are guilty of the same thing you are accusing me of if I understood your statements here correctly.

3.) “I’ve been a missionary in Asia for most of the last 8 years, the majority of which has been in a “Creative-Access-Nation” that is hostile to missionaries.”

Praise the Lord.

4.) “Although I’ve not met Jaeson, we have many of the same friends and run in similar circles (college students / 1040 missions / tentmaking / Asia / Asian-American / etc). I have only heard reports and seen evidence that he is a faithful brother, although like all of us he isn’t perfect and of course he is not above making potentially big mistakes one day (all the more reason to pray for him).”

I think I can imagine what those evidences are, which are probably the same ones that makes me want to believe that Jaeson Ma is still a saved brother in Christ.  However, where I disagree with you is that while you believe Ma has yet to make a big mistake one day (we all can I might add), I believe that he has already made a serious error already when he made the prediction that Los Angeles will be hit by a large Tsunami.  If Scripture is to inform us and shape our paradigm in understanding the nature of prophecies, surely Ma did not just make a small mistake, but have made a false prophecy that he attributes as coming from the LORD.  That’s not just some small “mistake.”

5.) “My personality and approach in ministry is rather low-key (I guess you have to be that way to last in a creative-access-country), so I tend to be a bit uncomfortable with artists and high-profile ministry. I think artists are a puzzling group to work with and sometimes I feel they come across as a bit too extreme. But, then again, maybe that’s why they grab our attention and inspire us to a higher level of beauty and excellence.”

Again, going back to my response #2, are you not inconsistent to describe him as being high profile and “bit too extreme”?  I suspect how you defend yourself will be the same way I defend myself from your charges against me.

6.) “I also think that my experience of the prophetic (usually dreams, though maybe a vision here or there) is that these things happen more often when you are opening new beachheads to the gospel among people groups where there is generational demon worship, etc.”

First off, I’m always concern when people invoke their personal experiences and anecdotes as a defense concerning their view of God, His works and other theological matters.  Let’s stick to the Bible and what can be properly deduced from it.  Secondly, where does Scripture teaches that prophecy “happen more often when you are opening new beachheads to the gospel among people groups where there is generational demon worship, etc”?  I’m open to this view, but I don’t think it enjoy much Scriptural support that this is the norm.  But this is not the crux of the issue with Ma’s false prophecy.  Thirdly, if we assume for the argument that your statement here is true, that the prophetic does occur among “new beachheads to the gospel,” how is this an argument to vindicate Jaeson Ma’s prediction?  You would acknowledge my point here in light of the comment #7 that Ma’s setting is not a new beach head ministry for the gospel when he made his prophetic claims.  The situation that Jaeson Ma made his predictions is different than a setting for a new beach head for the gospel.  No matter the way you look at it, what you have stated here is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not Jaeson Ma made a false prophecy.

7.) “So, I really don’t expect most people in America to have much experience with this even though we all have the HS and 1 Corinthians 14 exhorts us to especially pursue developing our prophetic gifting. It’s understandable that this would be an area where the US Church has a lot of disagreements because the environment doesn’t often force one to make use of it. You definitely don’t have these discussions in the hills of Thailand and Burma!”

What you have to say here does not support Jaeson Ma’s defense since it does more to make the prophetic irrelevant in America.  Speaking of the United States and prophetic gifts, you said “the environment doesn’t often force one to make use of it,” though apparently according to your own words it probably does in Thailand and Burma.  Again, per #6, I’m cautious when people defend a theological position with stories.  Even if the prophetic does happen in South East Asia,  remember Jaeson Ma was not making these predictions in South East Asia to South East Asians but in a land where the enviornment does not compel the use of the prophetic gift (your own admission).

8.) “But another point is that, just like the other gifts, dreams/visions can be confusing at first and you have to pray a lot and share with accountability partners to get a clear understanding of what they probably mean. Even then, I don’t really know for sure what the dream/vision means until after the thing occurs. Often I will be accurate on some core points but they come about in a way that is kind of different from what I expected. For example, I had a dream in 2008 of a girl coming to Christ at a Chinese orphanage the night before I led a team there to share for a week. I wrote the dream down and it left me feeling a bit confused so I put it out of my mind and set my focus on our work there. The last night of the camp a girl came to know JC and I stumbled across my journal, in which the exact conditions of the dream were met with this person and how she came to faith. After the fact it all made sense, but beforehand I kind of put it out of my mind because I didn’t really know what to make of it. I feel like this kind of thing is pretty common, actually.”

Again, I’m not a fan of “he said..she said.”  Taking your words at face value, your account demonstrate more of the point that we are not able to fully understand prophecy entirely before it’s fulfillment but that’s a far cry with the issue at hand of whether a prophecy from the God of the Bible can fail.  It does not contribute anything really to this discussion about whether or not Jaeson Ma was or was not a false prophet.

9.) “I’m just saying that clear prophetic interpretations aren’t immediately obvious and interpretations are influenced by the person’s other faculties, especially with dreams/visions.”

See again #8.  Again, to  say that  a prophecy from God might not be immediately obvious is not addressing the same subject matter as a failed prediction.

10.) “I think Wayne Grudem (author of Systematic Theology) writes well on the Biblical basis for this understanding of NT prophecy and I encourage you to check it out.”

THank you for the reference to Grudem, though this is an area I disagree with him on.  I don’t want to go on a rabbit trail, so I’ll leave it at that unless you want to pursue this a little more.

11.) “To your points: I’d like to raise issue with Objection 1 and Objection 2. Objection 1- False prophets are defined, according to Matthew 7, as those who engage in lots of evil behavior and we are exhorted to watch their lives closely.”

First off, while Matthew 7 does gives us characteristics of false prophets we must not look at Matthew 7 in a vacuum and divorce it from the context of biblical theology (and by that I mean taking into account chronologically prior Scriptural truths that Matthew 7 builds upon in light of progressive revelation).  In terms of what false prophets are, we must take into account antecedent theology, that is, what does previous revelation informs and shape our understanding of what a prophet and the subset, a false prophet, is.  One must not engage Matthew 7 without consideration of other previous revelation from God’s Word.  We must synthesize the Biblical data rather than become reductionistic.  Otherwise, we would think a false prophet is someone who does a lot of bad behavior, something your comments seem to be leaning towards.  Secondly, Matthew 7 does not define false prophets “as those who engage in lots of evil behavior,” with my contention that “lots” or other similar terms such as “many” are not in the text of Matthew 7:15-23 (the portion discussing false prophets).

12.) “If we watch closely, we will be able to identify them because they will only be able to bear evil behavior/fruit. In Jaeson’s case, the only evil behavior you have brought against him is that this vision hasn’t yet come about in the way you expected it to come about.”

Again, per #11, there is a complex fallacy here in which your presuppositions are off in that you expect a false prophet will have “lots” of bad behavior in order to be a false prophet.  To reiterate again for emphasis, I think you have a reductionistic tendency of failing to account for other passages that talks about prophecy.  In addition, I think your statement is inaccurate that the charge I “brought against him is that this vision hasn’t yet come about in the way you expected it to come about.”  My charge that Jaeson Ma made a false prophecy is not about “the way I expected it coming about,” as it is more about the way Jaeson Ma himself, his followers and his associates understood the way the prophecy is supposed to come about (see my original post, in which I discussed about how his circle according to Jaeson Ma himself understood it literally, and explain why they stock things up and sold their homes, etc).  I’m noting a failed prediction according to how they understood the predictions, not my wrangling with their words to fit my expectations brother!

13.) “Remember, verse 18 says that a bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit and verse 20 says by your fruits you will recognize them. If this accusation is to hold water then the passage says he CANNOT bear good fruit. Instead, you’ve conceded the testimony of others that he has borne a lot of truly good fruit and this one questionable thing.”

First off, it’s a tricky thing to understand what constitute “fruit” and in my opinion I believe your understanding of it does not take into account the fuller context of Matthew 7:15-23.  Will you say casting out demons, performing many miracles and prophesying, if it’s done under Jesus’ name are indications of “fruits”?  I suspect you would say yes, yet Jesus goes on within Matthew 7 in the immediate context of verse 22 these frightening words of Jesus, ” Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’”  Note the consequences in verse 23, and Jesus’ own pronouncement in that verse to those who supposedly had “fruit”:  “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”  Jesus Himself as the righteous Judge declare indicatively that they practice lawlessness which we would probably agree are bad fruits.  What the Lord of Truth Himself omitted in verse 23 is also telling: He never denied them having done those positive deeds, so we have no grounds to say that they did not have any positive deeds.  I think the reason why Jesus said what He said in verses 21-23 is to avoid His hearers from assuming a simplistic understanding of good fruit as just any good old deeds will do, and that if a false prophet comes and do and say some positive things, then therefore everything must be okay.  The reason why I say knowing the fruit is tricky is because the motives for why people do good things can also be further complicated by bad motives, and we all know that people can have good behavior fueled by bad motives.  It is true that verse 20 says by your fruits you will recognize them, I would admit that.  This seems to be important enough that the concept has been repeated twice, with the first instance in verse 16: “You will [k] know them by their fruits.”  If this concept of “you will know them by their fruit” is repeated twice, then there is something with this literary device of repetition that Matthew is employing for emphasis.  But note that this doublet of “You will know them by their fruits” is embedded in the context of talking about false prophets (cf. v. 15).  I know that in this age of political correctness and sensitivity of being negative it might sound wrong, but the way we are to identify false prophets is not by looking for good fruits, but of any hints and indication of bad fruits being present in the prophet’s life and ministry.  Why?  The first reason to me is that in the very beginning of this periscope, Jesus makes it real clear that false prophets will be deceptive so that Jesus even had to command ““Beware of the false prophets,” while describing them in the second clause as one “who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.”  If false prophets could come deceptively with some positive signs of being in the fold, the implication here is that the evidential weigh of bad fruits outweigh the contrary, since false prophets could be faking it outwardly.  The second reason why I believe it is appropriate to interpret this “watching for the fruits” as referring to keeping an eye out for negative fruits is because even false heathen prophets can do good deed here and there, and prophetic cult leaders as well, so surely it’s not just positive deed that we are looking for.  If you would deny this point, would you be consistent in saying that those class of prophets are not false prophets on the basis of some positive deeds?  I will think more highly of you brother, and believe you will say “May it never be!”  Yet, the very same arguments you give in your observation of Matthew 7 can also be applied in defense of established false prophets.  Thirdly, the gist of Matthew 7 is not to be comfortable with a few evidences of good deeds here and there and be comfortable while there’s an obvious sin; rather the text’s main idea is to err on the side of caution and I think we must do the same with the Ma situation.  To say that I admit Jaeson Ma have done some positive things for the Lord is not the type of concession that gets Jaeson Ma off the hook in light of my explanation of the text here.

14.) ‘I don’t think NT prophesy and OT prophesy are identical as I explain later, so I don’t think this one point qualifies as evil behavior.”

Will deal with that below then when it comes up =)

15.) “Maybe Jaeson doesn’t agree with my understanding of NT prophesy and believes his pronouncement to be infallible, literal and bound to happen before, say 2011. In that case I imagine he would feel pretty conflicted right now.”

All the rhetorics and argument aside, I’ve just prayed for him right now, since I still want to think better of him as a believer, and can’t imagine how he feels.  More importantly, I think it’s important that he repents and publicly confess this public sin of saying the Lord spoke something that He did not.

16.) “But, because Jesus says a good tree’s fruit is all good and a bad tree’s fruit is all bad, then I would still attribute that to incomplete doctrine on this one point, rather than a sweeping character problem.”

I think I’ve preemptively responded to this point in #13 brother.  I don’t think I’ve ever made a “sweeping character problem” charge against Jaeson Ma.    You have to stop putting words in my mouth.  At the same time, I can see how in light of Matthew 7, one might be and probably should be cautious with Ma’s character overall in light of this situation.

17.) “As a side note, alternative interpretations abound: if all the LA believers were to have sold their houses in 2006 (as some did when they took these prophesies seriously) they would have fared quite well amidst the financial tsunami of 08-09 that wiped out huge stores of wealth, devastated the livelihood of tens of thousands, and swept away entire branches of the entertainment industry that defines the city.”

How would L.A. believers selling their homes in 2006 would have made them fared well in the financial crisis that followed?  It does not necessarily follow.  For instance, you can sell your homes and made a profit in 2006 but still be out of a job later in 2008-2009.  More importantly, this was not the interpretation Jaeson Ma understood of it so it’s irrelevant.

18.) “If we look closer at the passage, I believe Jesus was speaking into a context of a religious authority that used shows of devotion as a way to perpetrate injustice in the name of God.”

And in light of the fact that false religious authorities would no doubt fake good deeds as “shows of devotion,” your admission here does further reinforce my point in #13.

19.) Jesus was effectively distinguishing himself from the false prophets that filled the various religious orders of his day and inviting others to closely examine his own life to become convinced that His teaching was from God, not the enemy.”

First off, don’t forget that this examination was largely for bad fruits in light of my case made in #13.  Secondly, the passage itself in Matthew 7 never made such an invitation to people to compare Him with other false prophets since His claims in Matthew 7 was more than that of a prophet but the One who will SINGLEHANDEDLY judge all other false prophets (cf. 7:23); though I suppose I’ll let that point go since this text on testing a false prophet would still apply to Jesus and one we as believers know that He passes.  Which leads to my third point: Would it have been okay for Jesus to have made false predictions as a prophet, as one who is the first Prophet of the NEW TESTAMENT (seeing you believe NT prophets can be fallible)?  How convincing of a proof of a prophet would you think Jesus made if Christianity says one can err in prophetic utterances?  And how does it fare against your view that there’s a radical difference between OT and NT prophets, with the fact that Jesus as the epitome of an NT prophet Himself prophetically declares and reinforces the continuity of the OT to the NT in Matthew 5:17, ““Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished”?

20.) “The reason his listeners were to be so careful in paying attention to all the fruit in a person’s life was that the wolves Jesus was distinguishing himself from populated most of the religious order of the day and were therefore steeped in seemingly good works, which, upon closer examination, were ALL entirely corrupt.  None of those leaders bore any truly good fruit and Jesus told the audience that if they looked closely then they would be able to clearly see that fact.”

Of course, at the heart of their good fruits so called were wrong motives.  As I stated earlier, do not commit the reductionistic fallacy of assuming that a false prophet only means they one who does corrupt deeds: don’t forget that a false prophet, among other things, is in essence, one who makes false prophecies.

21.) “The sanctification process means that we will be more conformed to the image of Christ over time but that will be mixed with deeper awareness of the sinfulness of our flesh and the limits of our finite faculties (among which is my mental capacity and the natural blind spots of my personality).”

Amen.  But the process of sanctification does not excuse the making of a false predictions as “ok.”  I find it painfully ironic that you keep on making a big deal that I have something negative to say about Jaeson Ma’s moral character, yet you also see this failed prediction as the result of a moral flaw when you bring up the issue of Jaeson Ma’s sanctificaton as the deficiency behind the false prophecy.

22.) “Given the larger context of a faithful ministry, isn’t it less presumptuous for us to interpret miscommunication in these visions to an area of this brother that is still maturing in knowledge and sanctification, rather than suggest his entire life and ministry is corrupt?”

First off, a false prophecy is not just a “miscommunication.”  It’s not just a random thing that happens.  Apparently God took it seriously enough and at one time invoke a death penalty for it.  Secondly, cite and hyperlink where I said that Jaeson Ma’s entire life and ministry is corrupt.  I would like to think that it’s your own misreading of what I wrote that makes you think this, but it’s getting kind of harder and harder for me to think this seeing how you make these large assertions again and again.  It’s not true.  I think it would speak a lot to your integrity to retract that. It would also say a lot if you didn’t.

23.) “Matthew 7 says it’s either one or the other when it comes to false prophets, so you have to go all in to advocate for one of those explanations. Remember, though, this is our brother we’re talking about!”

See response #13.  Responding to your comments thus far, I’m surprise that the issue at hand is altogether missing: If Jaeson Ma did make a false prophecy, what does that make him?  A false prophet.  I do think there’s sloppy reasoning going on here, that if you someone claims to be a brother, therefore that person can not be a false prophet.

24.) “Be careful, because we are exhorted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 4 not to judge a fellow servant of God since God alone will bring to light the hidden secrets of the heart during the final judgement.”

First off, I think your point is an improper extrapolation from 1 Corinthians 4.  Just because God will ultimate judge the hidden secrets of the heart during the final judgment of His servants does not mean Christians can not practice discernment and test/examine those who prophecy.  Apparently, after the previous verse talked about prophecies, 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 states, “ But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil.”  Note that in the Greek, the verb “examine” is an imperative, showing that believers have such an obligation.  The Greek root of this verb, δοκιμαζω, has the idea of testing and examination with care (see Hiebert’s classic commentary on this, page 247), and it turns out that it’s a favorite verb of Paul, where 17 of the 23 times it appears in the New Testament occurs in Pauline epistles.  The tense of the verb in 1 Thess. 5:21 makes it clear that this command is for the believers to continuously and habitually put this in practice.  After testing a prophet and their prophetic utterances, it’s not unbiblical to rule things as either good (which presupposes it’s true, since the adjective good here in verse 21 is καλον, and means what is intrinstically good rather than just pragmatically beneficial) or evil (this word in verse 22 is in juxtaposition with “good” of verse 21, and one can assume that it’s would include what’s false on this basis and for the second reason that lexically, the word “evil” here has to do with that which is destructive, injurious and evil in its effects, and one can see the bad undesirable effects of false prophecy on people’s trust in God, etc).  Secondly,  since we are “not to judge a fellow servant of God since God alone will bring to light the hidden secrets of the heart during the final judgement,” what are you doing here then?  It seems rather inconsistent.  Thirdly, if God is the one who truly judges the secrets of our hearts, can we be so conclusive as to say that everything is alright with Jaeson Ma in light of his false prediction and the paradigm of Matthew 7 as I outlined in #13?

25.) “Objection 2 – I was interested by your use of 2 Peter 1 because I think that it actually advances the opposite of what you’ve taken it to mean.
2 Peter 1:18-21–Which you understood to mean:“to say that a true prophet of God can misinterpret the true prophecy God has given Him is impossible”  But actually in this passage Peter’s point is that his personal revelation of seeing Christ baptized and hearing the Father’s approval, as well of his revelation of those words again on the mount of transfiguration, are both less reliable than the prophecies we find in Scripture.”

First off, do you agree that a true prophet of God cannot misinterpret the prophecy that God has given Him?  If not, I would like a chapter and verse from Scripture for how you justify that.  Secondly, if one were to extrapolate from 2 Peter 1:18-21 that there exists a hierarchy of certainty and reliability of the Scripture over extra-biblical prophecies/revelation, it does not follow that just becausethere is room for something to be less certain that a false prediction is now permitted.  We need to be careful not to confuse epistemological certainty with whether something is true or false.  To do so is to commit a categorical fallacy.

26.) “Peter spends the first half of this chapter making an important point. He is emphasizing the centrality of Scripture’s promises as the key to understanding a true knowledge of Him unlocking power in the Christian life to be transformed into a state of godliness, thereby escaping the corruption of the world by lust.  He then cites the excellence of his own visions/experiences and says that they are still open to interpretation and relatively unreliable when contrasted with Scripture, which did not come about through man’s interpretation.”

First off, in 2 Peter 1, Peter did not say “his own visions/experiences and says that they are still open to interpretation.”  The only time he mentioned “interpretation” in chapter 1, was in verse 20 and that was to say that the prophecy of Scripture was not a matter of subjective interpretation.  You have no basis to assert that.  Secondly, I don’t see support for your langauge that Peter’s revelatory experiences from God was “relatively unreliable when contrasted with Scripture.”  What I see is that in Peter’s description of his instance of NT revelatory experiences was one of strong certainty: note Peter’s description that “did not follow cleverly devised tales” in verse 16, his invocation of legal testimony language in verse 17 when he said, “we were eyewitness.”  Granting that there exists hierarchy of certainty, one cannot deduce from this to say that this passage teach Peter’s extrabiblical revelation was “relatively unreliable.”  There is no room here to support your view of NT prophecies.

27.) “You see, the point is that even Peter’s spectacular visions WERE STILL a matter of interpretation, yet the prophecies *of Scripture* are in no way a matter of interpretation.”

Again, Peter did not say his interpretation were still a matter of interpretation.  And 1 Peter 1:18-21 certainly does not say it’s okay for it to be a matter of wrong interpretation to such an extent that it’s even okay if it failed from being fulfilled.

28.) “It is into this context of prophetic gifting that Paul exhorts his church in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21, “do not despise prophetic utterances, but test every one and hold onto the good ones”. Scripture is the infallible sieve through which we sift the messy prophecies of a growing, fallible Church.”

I’ve offered my exegetical comment earlier concerning 1 Thess. 5.   Scripture is indeed the “infallible sieve through which we sift ” prophecies.  Don’t forget 2 Timothy 3:16-17, ” All Scripture is [a]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for [b]training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”  We use Scripture for teaching, reproof and correction.  Note how 2 Timothy 3:16 states that all Scriptures is useful in that regards, so I think it’s appropriate to bring Deuteronomy 18 to bear as well, something that you omitted, and should not have given that I believe your case for the discontinuity between OT and NT prophecies have been weak and not compelling.

29.) “My charge to you: If, as you say, a modern prophet is one who simply interprets Scripture, then the equivalent of a modern false prophet would actually be one who misinterprets Scripture, and in effect misattributes the authority of God’s Scripture to the opinions of the speaker. If we are to deal with this kind of person according to the OT protocol, then he or she should be taken outside the camp (whatever that is now) and stoned to death.”

Why do you keep putting words into my mouth?  I have never said that “a modern prophet is one who simply interprets Scripture” (if you disagree, please quote me by cutting and pasting, and hyperlink where did I ever say this).  Since I’ve never said such a thing about modern prophets, everything else that follows in your comment being upon this premise commits a straw man fallacy.

30.) “Are you willing to advocate this sort of treatment for those who misquote Scripture, or do you cede that your understanding of prophecy in the modern context is incomplete? If it is the former, then let’s evaluate the Matthew 7 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 passages to determine which one of us should die. If it’s the latter, then I believe we can give our brother Jaeson the benefit of the doubt and redouble our prayers for him.”

Again, straw man fallacy, see comment #29.  Furthermore, there’s a false dilemma fallacy embedded in your comment here: I reject advocating that sort of treatment towards those who misquote the Bible, but that does not necessarily mean that I have to cede my understanding of prophecy as being incomplete!  I think I have given Jaeson Ma as much charity as I can here, and I only wish that Christians can do the same here.

31.) “I really appreciate your call to hold Scripture in high regard and encourage the Church to “test every prophetic utterance, holding onto the good” as well as to “search the Scriptures daily” like the Bereans.”

Great.

32.) “Let’s also be careful that we don’t let what was true of Paul become true of our brother: “At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them.” 2Tim4:16”

I think this is yet again another (and hopefully final) verse abuse and cannot be use to compare Jaeson Ma with the Apostle Paul here.  First off, if I’m not mistaken I counted 13 unique I.P address that have commented here on Veritas Domain over the past year either defending Ma, or saying still something positive about him.  The martyrdom complex and the victim’s card is inappropriate here!  Secondly, even outside of the comments here, Jaeson Ma has a lot of fans and supporters so I don’t know how this passage is applicable to our situation in the greater context of Ma’s larger ministry.  Thirdly,if this is the Apostle Paul we are talking about, he’s also the same man who wrote Galatians 2, that when Peter was wrong and hypocritical, Paul opposed him and even wrote a letter about him.  Thus, the issue is whether or not Jaeson Ma has made a serious offense with a false prophecy.  Paul was in need of defense not because of something wrong, whereas I would say otherwise in the case of Ma.  Fourthly, I presume you cite this passage with the assumption that I have wronged Ma.  I don’t think anyone can get a verse to show that documenting a failed prediction is a sin, do you?

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Back in July 2011, I wrote a post here on Veritas Domain on a “prophecy” that Asian preacher and prophet Jaeson Ma wrote back in 2006 ,that has been receiving a lot of attention and comments.  Most of the comments on that page has been offering up defenses for Jaeson Ma, and some of these objections are frequently brought up again and again.  The most recent one was by a brother in Christ name Kells, and I thought his concern was typical of the comments I have been getting and for the purpose of this post I  reproduce it in full here:

Doesn’t the Bible (in the NEW testament) also say you will know a false prophet by his fruit (Matthew 7:15-23)? I think Jaeson Ma genuinely believed he received a dire message from God. Perhaps he simply misinterpreted- it happens. If this is a singular, isolated occurrence, I don’t think it’s fair to put that label on him. One mistake versus years of work in the ministry, leading countless people to peace, fulfillment, and happiness in the salvation of Jesus Christ? Do you really think in GOD’S eyes he is a false prophet for this? A false prophet is a liar and a deceiver. Would you agree he is these things too? You are certainly allowed your opinion and I don’t know the guy but to jump to such a conclusion sets an unhealthy precedent for less mature believers and sets the unattainable standard that Christians must always be right about everything or they are “false prophets.” Furthermore, isn’t the whole point of this type of “prophecy” to get the people in that community to repent of their sins so that the proclaimed judgment could be avoided? Jonah proclaimed judgment on Nineveh. A judgment that never came to pass (because the people REPENTED). By your standard, that makes him a false prophet. Nobody can make anything happen, all we can do is try to be obedient to God to the best of our ability. You almost sound angry that it DIDN’T happen. For whatever reason, Jaeson was wrong (unless it’s yet to happen) and I for one am glad he was!

Now what follows is not a personal attack Kells, but rather I wish to address the issues that he has brought up and my concern for them that they are unbiblical in nature or even self-refuting, etc.  I thought I make this post as an easy way to offer a link for the frequently brought up objections defending Ma, so that I don’t have to keep on writing them again and again, using Kells’ comment in particular.

I hope that people will read this with consideration of the Word of God and not just subjective feelings masked under the guise, “The Spirit tells me otherwise…”  I think the general attitude of some who goes by their feelings and confusing that with the Word of the Lord is what has gotten Jaeson Ma in trouble in the first place!  As Christians, we are to tests things with the Bible as the Word of God and go by the what the Scriptures say rather than a preacher or someone who claims to be a prophet.  To be honest I am somewhat sadden the extent people will go in defending the reputation of a man rather than the reputation of God who have been suggested by Ma as saying something when He did not.

I do hope that supporters of Jaeson Ma read what I have to say in a better light rather than question my motive and say that I am mean spirited, that I wish for Ma to fail or something like that.

Objection #1: Jaeson Ma is not a  false prophet in light of Matthew 7:15-23.

Stated:Doesn’t the Bible (in the NEW testament) also say you will know a false prophet by his fruit (Matthew 7:15-23)? “

Response: The Bible in Matthew 7:15-23 does talk about a false prophet being known by their fruit.  For context, I think it’s appropriate to quote Matthew 7:15-23 in it’s entirety:

    15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will [a]know them by their fruits. [b]Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [c]know them by their fruits.

   21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [d]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Note that this passage also makes it clear that false prophets might not be as obvious as some people think, for some are even pretending to be a believer of God (“sheep”) when really they are not, per Matthew 7:15.

Readers must also realize that Matthew 7 is not the only place God’s Word talks about false prophet; we must consider other passages as well.  How do we distinguish between false and true prophets?  What are the “fruits” that one can identify so as to know whether or not someone is a false prophet?  I think Deuteronomy 18:21-22 addresses the epistemological concern more directly with the first question of how we will know a prophet has spoken the Word of the LORD:

You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’  When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the things does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken.  The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)

Thus, one of the fruits of a false prophet is this: If a prophet makes a prophecy that did not come about, Deuteronomy 18:21-22 makes it clear that such a person is not speaking on behalf of the Lord.

Objection #2: Jaeson Ma “only just” misinterpreted his prophecy from God.

Stated:I think Jaeson Ma genuinely believed he received a dire message from God. Perhaps he simply misinterpreted- it happens.”

Response: First off, concerning the first sentence, just because someone thinks they received a message from God does not mean it’s really a message from God.  Secondly, even if we were to grant that Jaeson Ma genuinely believed he received a prophecy from the Lord, he could also be genuinely mistaken since unfortunately sincerity is not the standard for truth.  Thirdly, a biblical perspective concerning God’s true prophets (as opposed to someone who claims to speak on behalf of God but isn’t) is that a true prophet will not misinterpret his own prophecy; to say that misinterpretation of true prophecy from God by true prophets of God is to bend the meaning of “true” in true prophets, and what is “false” about false prophets.  In addition, to say that a true prophet of God can misinterpret the true prophecy God has given Him is impossible, and is slanderous against the Holy Spirit, since a true prophet will have a true and accurate interpretation of the prophetic materials he has recieved since the Holy Spirit will ensure this to be the case as 2 Peter 1:20-21 demonstrates:

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Note what has been stated above.  I wonder if Christians would accept this kind of argument, that a false prediction “is not really false but just mistaken” if someone like Harold Camping (who predicted May 21st 2011 was the end of the world) would have said it, etc.  The practice of saying a prophet of God can make a mistake in interpreting it’s meaning does not have any biblical support.

Objection #3: Jaeson Ma only made one false prophecy, therefore it’s not fair to call him a false prophet.

Stated:If this is a singular, isolated occurrence, I don’t think it’s fair to put that label on him.”

Response: Even if Jaeson Ma made one false prophecy, I think it does qualify him as a false prophet, just as someone is a murderer even if that person only murder one, or a rapist if he raped one person, etc.  If one were to say that making one false prophecy is not in the same heinous bad category as rape and murder where one is warranted being labeled as a doer of those things even if it happened once, I think that individual needs to revisit the Word of God and see how seriously the LORD takes the sin of falsely presuming the LORD has spoken when HE has not, for such an offense at one point in redemptive history even carry the weight of capital punishment.  I think the greater issue should not be that I “put a label” on Jaeson Ma as a false prophet, but whether or not Jaeson Ma’s prophecy really is from the Lord, and if it’s not then…the one issuing those words is not a true prophet of God, but a false one.

Moreover, I think if one were to do a search here on this blog on Veritas Domain, one would realize that it’s not true that Jaeson Ma and his friends have just made one prophecy…he and those whom he associate with seem to have a habit of being interested in “prophecies” that does not come from Scripture, “prophecies” that are either downright false or highly questionable as coming from the LORD.

Objection #4: Jaeson Ma is not a  false prophet in light of Matthew 7:15-23 PART II.

Stated:Doesn’t the Bible (in the NEW testament) also say you will know a false prophet by his fruit (Matthew 7:15-23)? …One mistake versus years of work in the ministry, leading countless people to peace, fulfillment, and happiness in the salvation of Jesus Christ? Do you really think in GOD’S eyes he is a false prophet for this?  A false prophet is a liar and a deceiver. Would you agree he is these things too?”

Response: Again, let’s look at Matthew 7:15-23 in it’s entirety:

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will [a]know them by their fruits. [b]Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [c]know them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [d]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Kells here admits that Jaeson Ma has made a “mistake,” but I think that when the LORD speaks it is clear and there is no doubt about it, which is the precedence taught in Scripture.  One must ask the awkward question then of how would anyone mistaken the Lord speaking something when He did not, especially when it was not from Scripture.  That is quite an arrogant and a lying thing to do, to claim that God is saying something to you when He did not.  So I do not have a problem with calling Jaeson Ma a liar when it comes to his prophecy (of course,  Jaeson Ma can and  has told things that are true outside the realm of prophecy).  Our brother Kells asks the rhetorical question that Jaeson Ma cannot be a false prophet, since  how can one mistake go against Jaeson Ma’s“years of work in the ministry, leading countless people to peace, fulfillment, and happiness in the salvation of Jesus Christ?”  And the scary thing is that Matthew 7 directly tells us that false prophets can do those things that Jaeson Ma does.  Look at verse 22: “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [d]miracles?”  And the most frightening passage in all of Scripture follows in verse 23.  The implication from Matthew 7 turns out not to be a defense for Jaeson, but one that should make us truly frightened for any one who claims to do great miraculous things for God and speak presumptuously as a false prophet; Matthew 7 should make us concern of whether or not one who makes false prophecy about the LORD is self-deceiving themselves in regards to whether or not they truly are believers.

Objection #5: Exposing Jaeson Ma sets unhealthy precedence for less mature believers.

Stated:You are certainly allowed your opinion and I don’t know the guy but to jump to such a conclusion sets an unhealthy precedent for less mature believers and sets the unattainable standard that Christians must always be right about everything or they are “false prophets.”

Response: First off, I think there’s a caricature that I believe “Christians must always be right about everything or they are “false prophets.”  Nowhere did I ever suggests that if a Christian errs on something, they are then false prophets!  Rather, a person is a false prophet only if they claim to speak for the Lord something outside of the Bible and it’s not from the Lord, and it does not come to pass.  Also, nowhere did I  claim that Christians per se must be always right about everything.  However, that does not mean people claiming prophecies are then off the hook.  I hope it’s evident from the Scriptures cited earlier that Bible demands that those who make prophetic utterances to be 100 percent accurate, and that’s what I’m concern with in my original post.  I do not think I am jumping to conclusion prematurely about Jaeson Ma’s prediction, for even Kells agree with me that Ma is in error.

Secondly, I also think this objection also suffer from the additional problem that while Christian can and do err, that does not mean it’s wrong to point out error.  That is, it’s not altogether wrong either for Christians to point them out to one another.  Even the Apostle Paul dared to point out the hypocritical behavior that does not match up to the preaching of the Apostle Peter, as readers of Galatians 2:11-21 will recall.  And Peter was an Apostle, how much less will the rest of us claim a status of being immune from criticism!  Lest someone misapply Galatians 2:11-21 to defend that a prophet can err in their prophecies, Galatians 2:11 was about the Apostle Peter’s hypocritical action, not his utterances of the Word of God since it’s more about Peter not living up to what He knows and revelation of the Lord to him such as recorded in Acts 10.

Thirdly, in regards to the issue that what have been written exposing Jaeson might set an unhealthy precedence for less mature believers, I think the greatest threat with the whole discussion about Jaeson Ma is not the practice of Christian discernment and the exposure of error (for the epistles in the New Testament does that all the time), but Jaeson Ma’s false prophecy itself, which would stumble young believers when they see that they are not fulfilled and being seeds of doubt of whether or not God’s Word is true.  The true dangerous precedence that’s unhealthy for less mature believers is to think that dreams in today’s world in our current dispensation are prophecies from God.

Objection #6: Jaeson Ma and Jonah’s Prophecy

Stated:Furthermore, isn’t the whole point of this type of “prophecy” to get the people in that community to repent of their sins so that the proclaimed judgment could be avoided? Jonah proclaimed judgment on Nineveh. A judgment that never came to pass (because the people REPENTED). By your standard, that makes him a false prophet. Nobody can make anything happen, all we can do is try to be obedient to God to the best of our ability.

Response:  It does not seem the parallel with Jaeson Ma and Jonah is really that strong.  I agree that the Bible does show that one of the function of prophecies has been to get a community to repent of their sins and avoid judgment, Jonah being a good example of that.  However, to say that my standard would make Jonah a false prophet is not being totally fair.  I would grant that if a people repent, God may choose not to bring the prophecy of judgment to pass, being part of His plan.  However, this is the exact point where the parallel between Jonah and Jaeson Ma is most needed, fails to materialize: For Jonah, Nineveh repents, even up to the level of her leaders, and as a city collectively; when it comes to Jaeson Ma, could we really say that Los Angeles has repented and turn to the LORD corporately and that is the reason why God held back his prophecy from being fulfilled???
Though I mentioned about the discontinuity of the parallel between Jaeson and Jonah, space does not permit us to look at the messages Jaeson preaches in contrast to that of the Prophets’ delivery found in the Bible.

Objection #7: You are angry that a false prophecy did not happen.

Stated:You almost sound angry that it DIDN’T happen. For whatever reason, Jaeson was wrong (unless it’s yet to happen) and I for one am glad he was!

Response: If this is to imply that I’m angry that the Tsunami did not happen, and that I am some how sick and not compassionate because of it, I think this is not a fair representation of what I believe.  Of course I do not wish to see such a tragedy.  I’m not angry that the Tsunami did not come to pass, for my family would suffer too since they are in the area!  But I think that if I sound angry, it’s more of the passion for the Lord’s reputation.  I think that should be everyone’s primary concern as well.  Of course, I am glad that the Tsunami did not occur!  I suppose I do see it as kind of strange that someone would look at Jaeson Ma’s prophecy not being fulfilled with gladness and perhaps this illustration capture why I think so: Say you notice a doctor in the hospital telling everyone they have cancer when they did not, even though he did not come to know that by medical established means.  In one sense, you are relieved all the patients did not have cancer, but you would also be more upset that the doctor engage in such a speculation apart from the medical method, and you cannot even see how and why he would speculate with his dreams as being medical.  In the same way, I’m shocked at Jaeson Ma not going by the Bible as the Word of God, but his own dreams to say that it’s the Word of God when it was not.  I’m sad that people believed him.

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The concept of the “Hipster Pastor” and Hipster Christianity has gotten somewhat out of control in today’s Evangelical Christian landscape both in the US and internationally.

Over at the Gospel Coalition website, there has been some good Biblically-centered edifying materials for one’s spiritual soul.  One of the bloggers, Thabiti Anyabwile, the Senior Pastor of First Baptist Church of Grand Cayman in the Grand Cayman Islands, had a good opening discussion (Lord willing, it would expand a bit more in a few more blog posts) about Celebrity Pastors: “With a Little Help from Their Friends: How Pastors Become Celebrities.”  Readers SHOULD READ THE WHOLE THING THERE BEFORE GOING FURTHER READING HERE, BECAUSE THIS PASTOR’S THOUGHT IS QUITE INSIGHTFUL.

Pastor Anyabwile talks about the definition of a celebrity (famous…for being famous), but in words much better than mine, he writes,

I maintain “celebrity” is generally a pejorative and not a positive good because the corridor to celebrity essentially empties notoriety of its nobility.  “Celebrity” does this in one of two ways: either by eliminating accomplishment as the basis of fame and honor, and/or by embellishing a narrative that deifies the celebrity while creating a false attachment with the audience/crowd.

Although the star-driven “celebrification” process looks like the noble path to notoriety, here’s the difference: the narrative and publicity in the celebrity-making process renders the person a “pseudo-event” (Boorstin’s term) or a “human entertainment” (Gabler’s term).  Folks who simply should be honored for their achievement and even folks with no achievements can be “celebritized” when the real person gets eclipsed by a “role” or “image” conflated with the person’s real life.

Pastor Anyabwile’s blog entry talks about three dangers of making pastors into celebrities.  To add to that list, perhaps the biggest risk of celebrity preachers is that they rob the glory and attention…from God.

Unfortunately, there are apparently men out there who call themselves “Pastor” who function like a Celebrity Pastor.  An example of that among some Asian American and Asian circle is Jaeson Ma.

Now I also realize it’s one thing when a great man of God becomes famous…but it’s quite another when someone goes about seeking it, and maintaining it like the way Stars do it in Hollywood.  And when I refer to Hollywood style maintence of celebrity status, I’m not exaggerating when it comes to Jaeson Ma.

Tell me if the following three things about Jaeson Ma isn’t the epitome of the unbiblical concept of the Hip Rockstar Rapstar pastor.  You know you are a Celebrity pastor if you:

1.) Have a Glamour portrait shot like this:

2.) Have your own clothing line:

Some of you may be wondering where I get my gear… I’m sponsored by my friends Andrew & Johan at 3sixteen Clothing (www.3sixteen.com) if you want to support a fashion line that is truly excellent, passionate, and filled with purpose in every thread and fabric of each design then you will understand and appreciate 3sixteen. Check out their Fall 2009 Photo Shoot look book video… this is the freshness….

(Source: http://jaesonma.com/3sixteen-clothing/ )

3.) When you have to have a talent agent to manage you (Source: http://www.catchadventures.com/)

I know I have raised concern about Jaeson Ma here in the past on Veritas Domain.  I want this to be clear: I am not doing this to “hate” on young preachers; there are preachers younger than Jaeson Ma that I have been blessed with and look up to.  I am not against “successful” pastors…there are many whom I believe are Godly pastors that God in His Sovereignty has blessed their church and ministries because they were faithful to preach the WORD of God…accurately (rather than just throw out a motivation speech sprinkled with “I believe God will do something…!!!”).

I think the issue that’s most important and gets to me is really: What is Jaeson Ma teaching?  Is it just a Charismatic pencostal jibe with much emotionalism rather than what the clear Word of God states?

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It is unfortunate that many Christians have a short memory (actually people in general do).  Among some circles of Christianity, prophecies are given on a regular basis of spectacular things.  People get excited or even scared.  Then, before you know it, another wave of prophecies are made revealing allegedly new and fresh revelation from God, and people move on with the next wave while forgetting about the former prophecies and whether or not they have been fulfilled.

This trend among some charistmatic and Pentecostal circle can be analogous with fashion:  People go from one thing to the other, forgetting about what was the trend a few months or a year ago.  However, it’s only when Yahoo Front page or TV reflect back on the 90s (or 80s, etc) do people suddenly realize, “Oh yeah, I remember those days, that fashion , that trend…wow! I almost forgot about it!”  What was hip at one time becomes yesterday’s news and forgotten–almost.  God has an usual way of revealing things, and I am not talking about prophecies, but our sins and errors in a manner and time we least suspect.  Sobering thought.

Fortunately the internet is a great tool for our memory: What is written is not done in a corner but in the public if it’s online.  It leaves a digital footprint that allow God’s people to test an alleged prophet’s track record.  And God’s Word is clear that even if one detail of prophecy fails, that person is not a prophet of God:

You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’  When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the things does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken.  The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)

I have previously blogged about Jaeson Ma’s prophecy about a Tsunami hitting Los Angeles here.  I thought I take up another subject on Jaeson Ma again, since he made another prophetic statement in a blog post on July 12, 2011 about what he learned when he spent 40 days in an Evangelical Monastery in South Korea.  The entry was titled, “My Strength, My Song, My Salvation–40 Days in Jesus Abbey.”  It’s a very long post, as Jaeson Ma share many things that God has been teaching him.  Some of the things I read made me rejoice as what God has taught him–but other things, especially when it comes to the prophetic and claim that God is speaking outside the Word of God made me cautious and concern for him and his followers.

Many people commented on this long post of his, but when I checked his website today, this popular post was not featured.  I thought perhaps it was deleted but it was not.  Readers can access it here: http://jaesonma.com/my-strength-my-song-my-salvation-40-days-in-jesus-abbey/ (I provided the whole link written out so that readers can google for the cache of it, in case it is removed in the future).

He makes a prophecy concerning Korea in the next ten years in that blog post, that I thought it was good to post it here so that in the future people can remember and keep prophets like him accountable.  Here it is unedited in his own words:

I could feel and recognize the Holy Spirit’s momentum. A great work of the Spirit was being prepared. An spiritual army is being raised up.

Prophecy for Korean Student Revival

I believe in the next 10 years, there will be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in South Korea and North Korea unprecedented to anything experienced in the past 100 years of Christianity in Korea. The glory of the latter will be greater than the glory of the former. The Pyongyang revival in 1907 that birthed the Korean Pentecost and widespread movement of the Gospel will happen again in a powerful way among specifically the university students. There will be prayer meetings established all on every major university campus that will not stop, day or night, it will be a network of prayer furnaces that will create a massive ring of fire of God’s holiness, God’s power and God’s presence that will over turn the effects of sin in the nation. Sex trafficking business will be overturned, abortion will be overturned and made illegal, the suicide rate will decrease dramatically, and families will be restored because of this student revival movement. Students will hold signs of peace; proclaim the Gospel of the kingdom and there will be radical reforms made at every level of society. The mountains of government, business, education, media, arts, family and religion will come under the submission of Jesus Christ and His commandments. Witchcraft and Shamanism with all it’s power will be broken, many families and youth will renounce these demonic practices, and the Spirit of prophecy will be poured out in a new and dramatic measure as the Holy Spirit visits the nation and the young people with increasing dreams and visions, no longer will there be only a few who are moving in the power of the Spirit, but God will pour out His Spirit upon all sons and daughters. This is who they are, “sons and daughters of God” the orphan spirit, the spirit that needs to strive and perform for approval and acceptance will be done away with, God will be a Father to the fatherless, He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers. There will be a new worship, music and praise movement that will bring shock and awe, the shekinah glory of the Lord into the church and then out into society, it will be a new worship movement that will shock and transform the nation of Korea. It will be invisible, yet visible. The glory of God will be seen and felt. Young people will not just gather in the tens of thousands, but I saw hundreds of thousands gathering in massive worship crusades, new songs never sung, new lyrics yet to be written, new sounds never heard or played, it will be a worshipping army that will take over the nation of South Korea and then North Korea, then all over Asia and the nations. There will be a mountain of glory, in this mountain young people will stream in from all over South Korea, Asia and all over the world to seek the Lord while He may be found. It will be a tabernacle of David, 24/7 Prayer and Worship preparing the hearts of a new generation to enter into and take back the promise land of North Korea, then China, then all of Asia, Middle East and finally back to Jerusalem. These will be radical, relentless and in hot pursuit of their Lord and their Father’s glory. The kingdom of God will advance, the Spirit of the Lord will not hold back but be poured out in abundance, this will happen in the next decade, a great move of the Holy Spirit that will sweep the nation, it will begin again with the confession of sins in the Church, it will spread from church to church, fellowship to fellowship, home to home, confession of sins until the temple is washed clean and the Spirit can invade, then nothing will be able to stop this student mission movement, watch it will happen, Korea will arise as one nation, North Korea will become the kingdom not of man, but the kingdom of our God, it will happen soon, it will happen quickly, only pray and obey, for the time of the harvest is at hand. In Jesus name I pray name amen.

Note his first statement that he “could feel and recognize the Holy Spirit’s momentum” before preceeding with his prophecy.  Recall that Deuteronomy’s test of a prophet include whether or not it will be fulfilled.  The time limit in Ma’s prophecy is ten years from now (that’s 2021).

According to the above prophetic words from Jaeson Ma, if they are from God, within 10 years we should see:

1.) a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in South Korea and North Korea

2.) This outpouring in South Korea and North Korea will be unprecedented to anything experienced in the past 100 years of Christianity in Korea.

3.) The glory of this revival will be greater than “the glory of the former.”

4.) It will be a revival that is specifically among university students.

5.) There will be 24 hour prayer meetings on every major university campus

6.) This revival will create massive holiness in people’s lives.

7.) Sex trafficking business in Korea will cease.

8.) Abortions in Korea will be made illegal.

9.) Korean suicide rate will decrease dramatically.

10.) The student revival will be restored families.

11.) Korean Students will hold signs of peace.

12.) Korean students will evangelize.

13.) Korean students will bring about  radical reforms made at the level of government.

14.) Korean students will bring about  radical reforms made at the level of business.

15.) Korean students will bring about  radical reforms made at the level of education.

16.) Korean students will bring about  radical reforms made at the level of media.

17.) Korean students will bring about  radical reforms made at the level of arts.

18.) Korean students will bring about  radical reforms made at the level of family.

19.) Korean religion will come under the submission of Jesus Christ and His commandments.

20.) Witchcraft and Shamanism in Korea will be renounce as demonic practices.

21.) Young Koreans will increae dreams and visions, and not just a few.

22.) Young Koreans  will not just gather in the tens of thousands, but hundreds of thousands  in massive worship crusades.

23.) This revival will pour forth  all over South Korea,  North Korea, then China, then all of Asia, Middle East and finally back to Jerusalem and finally all over the world.

24.) Nothing will be able to stop this Korean student mission movement.

And while 10 years from now is far ways off , I hope this post on Veritas Domain will be leave a digital footprint as a reminder for people of whether or not prophecies made by Jaeson Ma will come true.  I have seen in my young Christian days very specific prophecies being made about this or that happening in one, two or three years, and it didn’t come to pass.  Audios from Conferences were conveniently removed from the internet, people quickly forget…but God does not forget those who claim to speak on behalf of Him when it wasn’t so, and one day they will be called into account for it.

My biggest worries are the many Christians who never ground themselves in the Word of God Biblically but are driven from one fad to another, with their feelings telling them what to do and believe rather than the Word.  My fear is with how many so-call Christians think they are Christians with all the sensationalism instead of the Word of God changing them with the Gospel itself–only to “fall away” and think they have tasted Biblical faith when they only got a subjective emotional high on human made prophecies that does not proceed from the Word of God.

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The Word of God does speak on the topic of how one can know whether or not one is a false prophet (one who does not speak from God but speaks presumptuously).  Note the following criteria:

You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’  When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the things does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken.  The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)

How will one know that the words of a prophet is not from the LORD?  When it does not come about as true.

Again, this is what God’s Word require as a way of testing all prophets and so-called prophets.  It is God’s standard for those who claim to speak His name.

The wonderful thing about the internet is that it archives things in a day and age where people’s memory are short and prophetic claims can be easily forgotten as the next wave of sensational prophecies are made, people move on to the next trend, old prophecies are forgotten and not tested with the Word of God.

On Friday, October 13th 2006, Jaeson Ma, a popular young Charismatic preacher,  wrote on his blog a post titled “Prepare and Pray-Earthquake coming to LA in my spirit…”

http://jaesonma.blogspot.com/2006/10/prepare-pray-earthquake-coming-to-la.html

He informs his readers that what he is about to write is prophetic:

Prophetically, I perceive that in Los Angeles something catostrophic, very likely an earthquake of great magnitude will devastate many in this land or region. Let me share…

And then proceed to share his prophecy of a Tsunami and a very large earthquake will be hitting Los Angeles.  How he knows this is because Jaeson Ma claims that God has given him a vision and a dream:

In early July I was flying back from a trip in Australia into Los Angeles airport. As I looked out the window of my seat, I saw Los Angeles and immediately in a open vision I saw the hills and valley of Los Angeles rolling and the cities being crushed. I was a bit shocked at seeing this vision, I kept it in my heart and prayed. That same night I had a very vivid dream where I saw once again the hills and valleys of Los Angeles county rolling up and down, the city being flattened and devastated, then I saw a large tsunami waves crashing over areas of Los Angeles and many peoples being wiped out. When I woke up I was shaken but also bewildered because I didnt think a tsunami type disaster would be possible in LA.

It was not just twice that Jaeson Ma claimed to have this truth revealed from God to him.  Afterwards, God gave him another dream:

About three weeks ago I had another very vivid dream. In this dream I was in a coastal beach are of Los Angeles. I was in a house near the beach with a loved one, when suddenly I looked out the large window doors of our home from the kitchen and saw MASSIVE WAVES the size of mountains approaching the beach and city area. I looked out, said look at that, we must get out of here! We started running out the house, scrambling. When we got out of the house, there were masses of people running over each other everywhere, all different ethnicities and then the waves hit, many people drowned, but by Gods grace we were able to get out of the devastation alive.

And then another dream from God:

Now, this morning I woke up at about 4:30am shaken by another series of dreams. In this dream I was with a friend and we had ran to a supply store in LA asking to get in, because we were hungry and without necessities. By grace the supply store nearly closed, but they let us in to get perishable foods and survival supplies. Then the scene changed and I was in my house when all of a sudden a large bull dozer type machine came crashing into the house, crushing the walls and leveling the entire home. By Gods grace, I was able to get out of the home, but had to run back in to grab some of my belongings, particularly one of my sandals.

And still another dream:

Lastly, the day after I received the massive tsunami dream. I had another dream where students from our church at UCLA were on the Santa Monica piere, it looked like there were deep, dark blue waves crashing into the beach, it wasn’t a tsunami but they were rough waves and very cold. Some students were jumping in head on and swam through the crashing waves to the other side of the waters where it was calm. I was afraid to, but as others went in, I went in also. I sensed this dream could have been a call to press through, not be afraid of what is to come because God is on our side, but to embrace what judgment may come, trust God and know that we will overcome by His strength and grace.

Apparently Jaeson Ma’s friends also had dreams that confirm this upcoming Tsunami were judgment of God upon LA:

This last week, at one of our sister churches prayer meeting, a missionary from world vision joined the prayer meeting not knowing anything about these prophetic dreams of judgment. She randomly felt led to share with the leaders that recently she had a dream where she saw large waves crashing into the campus of UCLA and they were not waves of revival, they were something catostrophic. She then said she saw the campus completely flooded and one of the large buildings (a parkings structure) completely toppled over. When she shared this- our leaders were shocked. She shared this the same week, just days before we did our prayer strike at UCLA this past weekend (Sat) with a large gathering of students.

Now when are these earthquakes and Tsunami in Los Angeles to take place?  For Jaeson Ma and his friends in 2006, it was certain that it was going to happen soon.

How soon?  After one of Ma’s many prophetic dreams of the impending Tsunami, the next morning a friend called him up sharing how his wife who had a prophetic dream and it left him depressed.  The reason was because this lady  allegedly had a precedence of being very accurate with her dreams, such as her dream a week before 9-11.  Therefore, since she had this tsunami dream, it was understood as very imminent:

When I woke up I was again deeply shaken in my spirit. An hour later I received a phone call from a missionary friend in Los Angeles. He left a voice mail message crying on the phone. He said, last night my wife had a dream of a massive tsunami wave that smashed into where we were living and our whole family was wiped out. He then said, his wife has had four other dreams with tsunamis in their lives and each time she had the dreams something devastating happened to their family, including the death of one of their sons to cancer who was wiped out in a dream by a tsunami months before it actually happened. When I called him, he was very discouraged, depressed and told me that his wife also had a dream one week before the 9-11 incident and knew it would happen, his wife is not one given to look to prophecy often, but her dreams have been quite accurate each time, this is why he was crying, sensing something imminent and devastating would happen to them soon. I shared with him I dont believe it is only for your family, because just that same morning I had received the dream of a massive tsunami wave hitting the coast of LA.

The imminence understood by Ma and friends was further elaborated in the blogpost in the practical response to these prophetic words.  Since it was understood as being just around the corner, people began selling their homes and stockpiling food and water.  It was understood that it would happen sometime before their stockpile of perishable food would expire:

Later on, to my surprise during this time back in Los Angeles I had met with a local pastor who told me that his wife and others in his congregation have had very vivid dreams of a massive earthquake hitting LA and also large tsunami waves crashing over the region wiping out many peoples. They felt it was so serious a warning from the Lord they sold their homes and others in their congregation also did the same to prepare and now are renting in the area. They are now preparing water, perishable foods and other preparations while praying for Gods mercy in the midst of judgement.

I suppose the next question is, is what were the expiration date of these food,  five years later.

Of course, one can say that the prophecy of the Tsunami and earthquake hitting Los Angeles has not happened yet.

More troubling is the concern one should have with Jaeson Ma after he has shared these alleged visions and dreams.  These prophetic words changes everything.  If people are selling their homes, storing up food because they believe it to be true, will the very messenger of these prophetic words not devote the same conviction in his response?

In light of his prophetic word that an enormous Tsunami and earthquake is coming, how can Jaeson Ma spend the time building human sand castles from 2006 onward marketing  his own fashionable clothing line, spending time and energy promoting his music video and pop single  (with no gospel of how Jesus saves sinners by God’s grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone), recording himself randomly giving flowers to girls walking in downtown L.A., taking cool celebrity headshots, making inroads into the entertainment business and spending forty days in a monastery being a farmer because it’s “spiritual”, all the while  a literal Tsunami tide coming ashore…

Why isn’t Jaeson Ma devoted full time with singular full effort in preaching sober warning to the masses, issuing stern rebuke of sins, calling for people to have true repentance and biblically expounding on the hope of the gospel of Jesus Christ as the one who atone for sins?  Will Jaeson Ma follows the pattern in Scripture of those with prophetic word of calamity such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos, Joel, etc., even though it is unpopular and dangerous?

A Tsunami tide of God’s judgment and building human sand castles…what an imagery.

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