Back in July 2011, I wrote a post here on Veritas Domain on a “prophecy” that Asian preacher and prophet Jaeson Ma wrote back in 2006 ,that has been receiving a lot of attention and comments. Most of the comments on that page has been offering up defenses for Jaeson Ma, and some of these objections are frequently brought up again and again. The most recent one was by a brother in Christ name Kells, and I thought his concern was typical of the comments I have been getting and for the purpose of this post I reproduce it in full here:
Doesn’t the Bible (in the NEW testament) also say you will know a false prophet by his fruit (Matthew 7:15-23)? I think Jaeson Ma genuinely believed he received a dire message from God. Perhaps he simply misinterpreted- it happens. If this is a singular, isolated occurrence, I don’t think it’s fair to put that label on him. One mistake versus years of work in the ministry, leading countless people to peace, fulfillment, and happiness in the salvation of Jesus Christ? Do you really think in GOD’S eyes he is a false prophet for this? A false prophet is a liar and a deceiver. Would you agree he is these things too? You are certainly allowed your opinion and I don’t know the guy but to jump to such a conclusion sets an unhealthy precedent for less mature believers and sets the unattainable standard that Christians must always be right about everything or they are “false prophets.” Furthermore, isn’t the whole point of this type of “prophecy” to get the people in that community to repent of their sins so that the proclaimed judgment could be avoided? Jonah proclaimed judgment on Nineveh. A judgment that never came to pass (because the people REPENTED). By your standard, that makes him a false prophet. Nobody can make anything happen, all we can do is try to be obedient to God to the best of our ability. You almost sound angry that it DIDN’T happen. For whatever reason, Jaeson was wrong (unless it’s yet to happen) and I for one am glad he was!
Now what follows is not a personal attack Kells, but rather I wish to address the issues that he has brought up and my concern for them that they are unbiblical in nature or even self-refuting, etc. I thought I make this post as an easy way to offer a link for the frequently brought up objections defending Ma, so that I don’t have to keep on writing them again and again, using Kells’ comment in particular.
I hope that people will read this with consideration of the Word of God and not just subjective feelings masked under the guise, “The Spirit tells me otherwise…” I think the general attitude of some who goes by their feelings and confusing that with the Word of the Lord is what has gotten Jaeson Ma in trouble in the first place! As Christians, we are to tests things with the Bible as the Word of God and go by the what the Scriptures say rather than a preacher or someone who claims to be a prophet. To be honest I am somewhat sadden the extent people will go in defending the reputation of a man rather than the reputation of God who have been suggested by Ma as saying something when He did not.
I do hope that supporters of Jaeson Ma read what I have to say in a better light rather than question my motive and say that I am mean spirited, that I wish for Ma to fail or something like that.
Objection #1: Jaeson Ma is not a false prophet in light of Matthew 7:15-23.
Stated: “Doesn’t the Bible (in the NEW testament) also say you will know a false prophet by his fruit (Matthew 7:15-23)? “
Response: The Bible in Matthew 7:15-23 does talk about a false prophet being known by their fruit. For context, I think it’s appropriate to quote Matthew 7:15-23 in it’s entirety:
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will [a]know them by their fruits. [b]Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [c]know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [d]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Note that this passage also makes it clear that false prophets might not be as obvious as some people think, for some are even pretending to be a believer of God (“sheep”) when really they are not, per Matthew 7:15.
Readers must also realize that Matthew 7 is not the only place God’s Word talks about false prophet; we must consider other passages as well. How do we distinguish between false and true prophets? What are the “fruits” that one can identify so as to know whether or not someone is a false prophet? I think Deuteronomy 18:21-22 addresses the epistemological concern more directly with the first question of how we will know a prophet has spoken the Word of the LORD:
“You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the things does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)
Thus, one of the fruits of a false prophet is this: If a prophet makes a prophecy that did not come about, Deuteronomy 18:21-22 makes it clear that such a person is not speaking on behalf of the Lord.
Objection #2: Jaeson Ma “only just” misinterpreted his prophecy from God.
Stated: “I think Jaeson Ma genuinely believed he received a dire message from God. Perhaps he simply misinterpreted- it happens.”
Response: First off, concerning the first sentence, just because someone thinks they received a message from God does not mean it’s really a message from God. Secondly, even if we were to grant that Jaeson Ma genuinely believed he received a prophecy from the Lord, he could also be genuinely mistaken since unfortunately sincerity is not the standard for truth. Thirdly, a biblical perspective concerning God’s true prophets (as opposed to someone who claims to speak on behalf of God but isn’t) is that a true prophet will not misinterpret his own prophecy; to say that misinterpretation of true prophecy from God by true prophets of God is to bend the meaning of “true” in true prophets, and what is “false” about false prophets. In addition, to say that a true prophet of God can misinterpret the true prophecy God has given Him is impossible, and is slanderous against the Holy Spirit, since a true prophet will have a true and accurate interpretation of the prophetic materials he has recieved since the Holy Spirit will ensure this to be the case as 2 Peter 1:20-21 demonstrates:
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Note what has been stated above. I wonder if Christians would accept this kind of argument, that a false prediction “is not really false but just mistaken” if someone like Harold Camping (who predicted May 21st 2011 was the end of the world) would have said it, etc. The practice of saying a prophet of God can make a mistake in interpreting it’s meaning does not have any biblical support.
Objection #3: Jaeson Ma only made one false prophecy, therefore it’s not fair to call him a false prophet.
Stated: “If this is a singular, isolated occurrence, I don’t think it’s fair to put that label on him.”
Response: Even if Jaeson Ma made one false prophecy, I think it does qualify him as a false prophet, just as someone is a murderer even if that person only murder one, or a rapist if he raped one person, etc. If one were to say that making one false prophecy is not in the same heinous bad category as rape and murder where one is warranted being labeled as a doer of those things even if it happened once, I think that individual needs to revisit the Word of God and see how seriously the LORD takes the sin of falsely presuming the LORD has spoken when HE has not, for such an offense at one point in redemptive history even carry the weight of capital punishment. I think the greater issue should not be that I “put a label” on Jaeson Ma as a false prophet, but whether or not Jaeson Ma’s prophecy really is from the Lord, and if it’s not then…the one issuing those words is not a true prophet of God, but a false one.
Moreover, I think if one were to do a search here on this blog on Veritas Domain, one would realize that it’s not true that Jaeson Ma and his friends have just made one prophecy…he and those whom he associate with seem to have a habit of being interested in “prophecies” that does not come from Scripture, “prophecies” that are either downright false or highly questionable as coming from the LORD.
Objection #4: Jaeson Ma is not a false prophet in light of Matthew 7:15-23 PART II.
Stated: “Doesn’t the Bible (in the NEW testament) also say you will know a false prophet by his fruit (Matthew 7:15-23)? …One mistake versus years of work in the ministry, leading countless people to peace, fulfillment, and happiness in the salvation of Jesus Christ? Do you really think in GOD’S eyes he is a false prophet for this? A false prophet is a liar and a deceiver. Would you agree he is these things too?”
Response: Again, let’s look at Matthew 7:15-23 in it’s entirety:
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will [a]know them by their fruits. [b]Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [c]know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [d]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Kells here admits that Jaeson Ma has made a “mistake,” but I think that when the LORD speaks it is clear and there is no doubt about it, which is the precedence taught in Scripture. One must ask the awkward question then of how would anyone mistaken the Lord speaking something when He did not, especially when it was not from Scripture. That is quite an arrogant and a lying thing to do, to claim that God is saying something to you when He did not. So I do not have a problem with calling Jaeson Ma a liar when it comes to his prophecy (of course, Jaeson Ma can and has told things that are true outside the realm of prophecy). Our brother Kells asks the rhetorical question that Jaeson Ma cannot be a false prophet, since how can one mistake go against Jaeson Ma’s“years of work in the ministry, leading countless people to peace, fulfillment, and happiness in the salvation of Jesus Christ?” And the scary thing is that Matthew 7 directly tells us that false prophets can do those things that Jaeson Ma does. Look at verse 22: “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [d]miracles?” And the most frightening passage in all of Scripture follows in verse 23. The implication from Matthew 7 turns out not to be a defense for Jaeson, but one that should make us truly frightened for any one who claims to do great miraculous things for God and speak presumptuously as a false prophet; Matthew 7 should make us concern of whether or not one who makes false prophecy about the LORD is self-deceiving themselves in regards to whether or not they truly are believers.
Objection #5: Exposing Jaeson Ma sets unhealthy precedence for less mature believers.
Stated: “You are certainly allowed your opinion and I don’t know the guy but to jump to such a conclusion sets an unhealthy precedent for less mature believers and sets the unattainable standard that Christians must always be right about everything or they are “false prophets.”
Response: First off, I think there’s a caricature that I believe “Christians must always be right about everything or they are “false prophets.” Nowhere did I ever suggests that if a Christian errs on something, they are then false prophets! Rather, a person is a false prophet only if they claim to speak for the Lord something outside of the Bible and it’s not from the Lord, and it does not come to pass. Also, nowhere did I claim that Christians per se must be always right about everything. However, that does not mean people claiming prophecies are then off the hook. I hope it’s evident from the Scriptures cited earlier that Bible demands that those who make prophetic utterances to be 100 percent accurate, and that’s what I’m concern with in my original post. I do not think I am jumping to conclusion prematurely about Jaeson Ma’s prediction, for even Kells agree with me that Ma is in error.
Secondly, I also think this objection also suffer from the additional problem that while Christian can and do err, that does not mean it’s wrong to point out error. That is, it’s not altogether wrong either for Christians to point them out to one another. Even the Apostle Paul dared to point out the hypocritical behavior that does not match up to the preaching of the Apostle Peter, as readers of Galatians 2:11-21 will recall. And Peter was an Apostle, how much less will the rest of us claim a status of being immune from criticism! Lest someone misapply Galatians 2:11-21 to defend that a prophet can err in their prophecies, Galatians 2:11 was about the Apostle Peter’s hypocritical action, not his utterances of the Word of God since it’s more about Peter not living up to what He knows and revelation of the Lord to him such as recorded in Acts 10.
Thirdly, in regards to the issue that what have been written exposing Jaeson might set an unhealthy precedence for less mature believers, I think the greatest threat with the whole discussion about Jaeson Ma is not the practice of Christian discernment and the exposure of error (for the epistles in the New Testament does that all the time), but Jaeson Ma’s false prophecy itself, which would stumble young believers when they see that they are not fulfilled and being seeds of doubt of whether or not God’s Word is true. The true dangerous precedence that’s unhealthy for less mature believers is to think that dreams in today’s world in our current dispensation are prophecies from God.
Objection #6: Jaeson Ma and Jonah’s Prophecy
Stated: “Furthermore, isn’t the whole point of this type of “prophecy” to get the people in that community to repent of their sins so that the proclaimed judgment could be avoided? Jonah proclaimed judgment on Nineveh. A judgment that never came to pass (because the people REPENTED). By your standard, that makes him a false prophet. Nobody can make anything happen, all we can do is try to be obedient to God to the best of our ability.
Response: It does not seem the parallel with Jaeson Ma and Jonah is really that strong. I agree that the Bible does show that one of the function of prophecies has been to get a community to repent of their sins and avoid judgment, Jonah being a good example of that. However, to say that my standard would make Jonah a false prophet is not being totally fair. I would grant that if a people repent, God may choose not to bring the prophecy of judgment to pass, being part of His plan. However, this is the exact point where the parallel between Jonah and Jaeson Ma is most needed, fails to materialize: For Jonah, Nineveh repents, even up to the level of her leaders, and as a city collectively; when it comes to Jaeson Ma, could we really say that Los Angeles has repented and turn to the LORD corporately and that is the reason why God held back his prophecy from being fulfilled???
Though I mentioned about the discontinuity of the parallel between Jaeson and Jonah, space does not permit us to look at the messages Jaeson preaches in contrast to that of the Prophets’ delivery found in the Bible.
Objection #7: You are angry that a false prophecy did not happen.
Stated: “You almost sound angry that it DIDN’T happen. For whatever reason, Jaeson was wrong (unless it’s yet to happen) and I for one am glad he was!“
Response: If this is to imply that I’m angry that the Tsunami did not happen, and that I am some how sick and not compassionate because of it, I think this is not a fair representation of what I believe. Of course I do not wish to see such a tragedy. I’m not angry that the Tsunami did not come to pass, for my family would suffer too since they are in the area! But I think that if I sound angry, it’s more of the passion for the Lord’s reputation. I think that should be everyone’s primary concern as well. Of course, I am glad that the Tsunami did not occur! I suppose I do see it as kind of strange that someone would look at Jaeson Ma’s prophecy not being fulfilled with gladness and perhaps this illustration capture why I think so: Say you notice a doctor in the hospital telling everyone they have cancer when they did not, even though he did not come to know that by medical established means. In one sense, you are relieved all the patients did not have cancer, but you would also be more upset that the doctor engage in such a speculation apart from the medical method, and you cannot even see how and why he would speculate with his dreams as being medical. In the same way, I’m shocked at Jaeson Ma not going by the Bible as the Word of God, but his own dreams to say that it’s the Word of God when it was not. I’m sad that people believed him.
Thank you for investigation regarding Jason Ma’s dangerous lies. Well done.
*the
Uhh, I’m actually a guy LOL. It’s all good. I certainly respect your opinion as you are obviously a passionate and well-versed child of God.Thank you for your respect for me and others who offered rebuttals in the polite and godly way you responded. And while I have my reasons for disagreeing with you, I definitely admire your passion, sir. Thank you for the offer to pray for me my only request is pray I will grow ever closer to the Lord and I will do the same for you. No, I don’t see it is a personal attack we are all believers in Jesus Christ and anyone who would “lose their cool” simply because someone disagrees with their point of view needs a few lessons in maturity. God bless you in your endeavors and your relationship with the Father!🙂
Kells,
I am sorry for the mistake! Someone else commented before you did, and I thought you were the same person (she happen to be a girl not a guy). I will change the post to reflect that you are a guy sometime tonight (in between doing two things right now).
I have prayed to the Lord according to what you ask: That you grow closer to Him.
God bless.
This has really been a VERY interesting, complex, and insightful thread. I do not know Jaeson, but I actually emailed him about what was perceived to be “false prophesies” that he has made. He responded by saying that it was because he “prayed and fasted” that the earthquake never happened. I responded back and said, “You could use that excuse for any prophecy that doesn’t happen” and since then he has never replied. Perhaps I was too negative in my approach. However, the main issue I have is not entirely Jaeson making prophesies that have never happened but more to do with the fact that he didn’t take responsibility for it. I’ve noticed that non-Christians don’t necessarily mind it when Christians “sin” but they do mind it when they try to cover it up and not admit to any wrong doings and I must agree with this mindset. Anyhow, I’m encouraged by the fact that there is such room for dialogue. Thank you.
Hey brother WD,
From what you have shared brother of what you emailed to Jaeson Ma (I am going by your word), I do not think you were “too negative” in your approach, at least in light of Scripture. Don’t forget that false prophecy spoken presumptously is offensive against God so much that in the Old Testament He did institute the Captial punishment for it. I think you brought up a legitimate concern about Jaeson Ma’s response, which I want to comment more about (if it’s really true): To explain away the failed prediction “was because he ‘prayed and fasted’ that the earthquake never happened” seems quite amazing to me, when one consider that the Biblical pattern of an announcement of judgement being overturned is not that the prophet prayed and fasted it won’t happen, but the recipients of the message and the objects of wrath heard the message, repented and believed. Among the issue you brought up, his statement does not strike me as being very humble.
WD, may God bless you brother, and may He keep you in the WORD, internalize it, and have you faithful to the Word rather than just by every wind of men and women who says “Thus Says the LORD…”
While I only know of Jaeson from listening to his two songs and reading his website and book excerpt. I would say it is unwise to accuse another Christian of being a false prophet if they did not claim to have the gift of prophecy. This reminds me of David Wilkerson of Times Square church. If you read the cross and the switchblade where God performed miracles through his faith, it is amazing to be able to go to NY and see the physical witness of the existence of Times square church and also living witness Nicky Cruz. David Wilkerson had some visions such as fiery riots in London and in NY. Also had a vision of the US failing spectacularly with the blood of US troops in Iraq in the first gulf war. The idea of a fiery riot in London was laughable back then and David Wilkerson was lamblasted after these visions failed. But do these negate the work God did through him? Can you argue with life free of scandal? Are you going judge yourself “better” or having more treasures in heaven then David?
The main this is to remember that we are saved by no name other than Jesus. Not by Tebow, not by Lin, not by our Pastor or our own intellect. Thus not every word your Pastor or preacher utters is gospel. He is just a messenger or Sherpherd leading you to your own relationship with God and keeping you accountable. If his goal is any other, like to fill seats and keep you happy, then he is a false teacher. If he says a few stupid things that he shouldn’t have said, forgive him as a Christian. If he is not violating scripture but you don’t agree with his leadership, pray for wisdom and leave if you have to. In terms of fruits, you can measure by some obvious things. Is the person in ministry or shares Christ openly, is there life characterized by the peace of God, and are their disciples reflecting God’s glory? There’s more but if we don’t exhibit these ourselves, then we have to watch ourselves more than others, as God will take care of the false teachers.
Hello PC,
It does not seem that you have read what the author of the blog has written. The issue is actually fundamental to your faith. When someone makes a prophesy and it fails it is serious.
Have you read Deut 18:21-22?
You must not equate making stupid remark and prophesy. We all make stupid remarks all the time. But to make false prophecies, one has incur the judgement of God. What happens to people who make false prophecies in the Bible? I think it would be better to stay with the Bible than what other celebrity pastors have to say.
Hearty amen, Andy. Hope you are doing better as well.
Hey brother or sister PC,
It’s getting late here and I’m working on sermon preparation for Sunday, and I will have to get back to you more in details later to some of your remarks. But one that stuck out that I want to note real quick is this,
PC1.) “I would say it is unwise to accuse another Christian of being a false prophet if they did not claim to have the gift of prophecy.”
Unfortunately, I would have to say that Jaeson Ma is a false prophet, and that if he is one, then saying it’s unwise to assert it would not be the issue. Pigging off what Andy have said, what makes someone a false prophet is according to Deut. 18:21-22 and there the passage never state that one has to claim to have the gift of prophecy in order to be a false prophet; one just has to make one, to be guilty of one and therefore be a false prophet; moreover, to say Jaeson Ma is not a false prophet or that he himself does not think he has been gifted by God with revealing prophecy does not explain the phenomenon of him giving prophecies multiple times in his career, such as his most latest which I cover here: https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/keeping-prophets-accountable-jaeson-ma-on-korea-revival-by-2021/. There are more prophetic statements he has given in the past but I think these will suffice to show that this is not just a one time “mistake” on Ma’s part.
Consider prayerfully what we are saying, and make sure you don’t follow man and defend man’s sin. Rather read the Bible for yourself, and be biblical rather than be driven by people who are all about supernatural experiences like speaking in tongues and making prophecies.
I read both this post and the original post and most of the comments and replies made on both. More than where I stand, I just wanted to ask a hopefully neutral question. If Jaeson Ma really did make false prophecies, then we can both agree that that is a serious offense to God. But then my question would be how would you go about teaching him what true prophecies are? You can argue for the discernment of the spirits after receiving a vision and testing it to see if it is from God, but unless God answers directly, a usual way to gauge the “correct-ness” would be to seek confirmation from close brothers and sisters around you. After all, there is no tangible way to see into the future, and to be honest, Scripture isn’t too clear in terms of guidelines of receiving and telling prophecies, though this may be because this world is falling deeper and deeper into sin and distancing itself further from Him, but that’s another topic. It seemed like because he had multiple visions and those visions seemed to be confirmed by brothers and sisters surrounding him who all believed very much in similar things potentially occurring, he also truly believed it would happen. While I’m not saying I support going around giving out false prophecies, how would you be able to tell what a real prophecy is? The only possible solution I can fathom is receiving an possible vision, waiting until it happens, then coming out and saying that you had a vision of it happening. I wanted to make this question unbiased and hopefully it didn’t sound like an attack. But a response would be appreciated! I’m genuinely curious as to what you think, haha!
Sorry, just a last thing to add; in that passage of Matthew, false prophets are entirely bad beings. They have bad fruits and sow bad seeds and by this we will know who the false prophets are. However, according to the testimony of the person that knows Jaeson, and just from reading and watching the things he does, I find it hard to believe that he’s merely a wolf in sheep’s clothing that merely does things in Jesus’ name while thinking of himself. Working with high profile celebrities is something that not everyone can handle, yet it’s easy to point at him and say he’s doing meaningless things. But with simple acts of passing out roses, he was able to open the door to share the gospel and plant seeds. On my campus, when I participate in evangelism events held by my campus ministry, we’ll go around giving out water bottles or gum packets with the gospel written on them, but that’s just a way to reach the people in our specific college context. Giving out roses in a poor section of the inner city on Valentine’s Day to tell them that Jesus loves them definitely shows that you care more than most lukewarm people who would turn their noses at the idea of sacrificing even that much (not saying that I am not lukewarm). But I also do understand the points that you guys (Andy and SLIMJIM and whoever else writes here) are making. Yet MAINLY I think we should all try and see everything from each others’ perspectives because with some posts, doesn’t look like people are willing to give others liberty, nor are typing with tact, on both sides.
Hey friend,
Let me once again thank you for taking the time to read everything here carefully.
C10.) “Sorry, just a last thing to add; in that passage of Matthew, false prophets are entirely bad beings. They have bad fruits and sow bad seeds and by this we will know who the false prophets are. However, according to the testimony of the person that knows Jaeson, and just from reading and watching the things he does, I find it hard to believe that he’s merely a wolf in sheep’s clothing that merely does things in Jesus’ name while thinking of himself.”
First off, I do not know fully Ma’s motive with 100 percent certainty. Concerning Matthew 7 as not applicable to Jaeson Ma, I do believe that under this blog entry, objection five, I dealt with this concern raised by others which I will quote and tailor: The scary thing is that Matthew 7 directly tells us that false prophets can do those things that Jaeson Ma does. Look at verse 22: “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [d]miracles?” And the most frightening passage in all of Scripture follows in verse 23. But note that verse 22, false prophets can make the claim they were doing things in Jesus’ name! They can claim to do things for Jesus, and claim to do mighty works for Him. The implication from Matthew 7 turns out not to be a defense for Jaeson, but one that should make us truly frightened for any one who claims to do great miraculous things for God and still speak presumptuously as a false prophet; we cannot just say that we see things he does for Jesus! Matthew 7 should make us concern of whether or not one who makes false prophecy about the LORD is self-deceiving themselves in regards to whether or not they truly are believers.
C11.) “Working with high profile celebrities is something that not everyone can handle, yet it’s easy to point at him and say he’s doing meaningless things.”
I’m not against reaching out to celebrities for Christ; I’m thankful that in one of my previous occupation, God opened the door to witness to celebrities. I guess what I meant to convey in my previous post is best captured in an illustration: If you saw a blind man walking toward a 1,000 foot cliff, you would immediately: Offer him your favorite Christian CD? Suggest a more fulfilling place to walk? Invite him to your house for a non-confrontational BBQ the following weekend? Warn him about the cliff? In the same matter, it disturbs me that people are taking his prophecies seriously to warn others soberly, but what he does seem to go against the seriousness of his prophecy.
C12.) “But with simple acts of passing out roses, he was able to open the door to share the gospel and plant seeds.”
I’m basing this off of memory, but if you can find the video, he just gives the roses with no gospel shared, not even a mention that he’s a Christian to them. That’s not New Testament principled evangelism; even nonbelievers go around with signs that says “Free Hugs.”
C13.) “On my campus, when I participate in evangelism events held by my campus ministry, we’ll go around giving out water bottles or gum packets with the gospel written on them, but that’s just a way to reach the people in our specific college context.”
Praise God! Keep on doing the work of the gospel!
C14.) “Giving out roses in a poor section of the inner city on Valentine’s Day to tell them that Jesus loves them definitely shows that you care more than most lukewarm people who would turn their noses at the idea of sacrificing even that much (not saying that I am not lukewarm).”
Amen! And the Gospel presentation/talk/sharing needs to be in that demonstration of love.
C15.) “But I also do understand the points that you guys (Andy and SLIMJIM and whoever else writes here) are making. Yet MAINLY I think we should all try and see everything from each others’ perspectives because with some posts, doesn’t look like people are willing to give others liberty, nor are typing with tact, on both sides.”
I hope you believe me when I say that I tried to write consciously in a matter that is tactful concerning such a serious and sobering topic that I’m passionate about. If you can quote me where you believe I am not tactful I’m willing to consider modifying it.
I think though, it does come down to this issue: Jaeson Ma has a history of making prophecies and being around people that make false prophecies and people need to be warned about it, not just think that love means ignoring what is dangerous. WHen you think about, it is one of the most arrogant thing anyone can do, to say that God is speaking to you a new revelation when it isn’t. There is some serious illusions going on; fortunately, God has given us His Word, and as Christians we should honor and follow those who spend time studying the Word and preaching it rather than follow those who just sprinkle some verses in their speech and going tangents from there to nice stories. We need the WORD OF GOD!
Hey friend,
Please don’t take this as a personal attack. I hope we have some mutual edification towards thinking things through more Biblically.
C1.) “I read both this post and the original post and most of the comments and replies made on both.”
Wow, that’s a lot! How long did that take you???
C2.) “If Jaeson Ma really did make false prophecies, then we can both agree that that is a serious offense to God.”
Response: Just curious, do you believe that he did or did not make a false prophecy?
C3.) “But then my question would be how would you go about teaching him what true prophecies are?”
I hope I am answering your question, to the best that I can; I have written about the Biblical template to test out false prophecies here: https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2011/05/24/may-21st-failed-harold-camping-predicts-again-he-is-false-prophet-according-to-bible-framework/ ; I think the implication of that is that true prophecies will (1) align itself with the rest of Scripture, and also (2) actually come about as true. I think believers should really study Messianic prophecies in Scripture, not only to strengthen one’s faith that Christianity is true, but also to see how does God give prophecies in contrast to the way modern “prophets” gives prophecies today. In answering your question I would also have to say that the gift of prophecy and office of prophet is not something normal today In light of Hebrews 1:1-3, I see that the gifts of predictive prophecy being more unlikely with the progress of the church age since we now have Christ, and the whole of the Christian faith already revealed to us for what we need to live with hope and act out a Christian life or believe (cf. Jude 3).
C4.) “You can argue for the discernment of the spirits after receiving a vision and testing it to see if it is from God, but unless God answers directly, a usual way to gauge the “correct-ness” would be to seek confirmation from close brothers and sisters around you.”
Response: Ultimately, the way to gauge “correctness” is to to see if it happens, or whether or not it goes against Scripture. Since we are prone to sin and we are finite, fellow brothers and sisters are not the ultimate gauge; though I suppose, brothers in Christ like those here on Veritas Domain are probably helpful in discernment too, of encouraging one another with the Biblical paradigm of testing prophets and also pointing out when it does not occur; again, see response C3, to see that I also believe predictive prophecies are not likely today.
C5.) “After all, there is no tangible way to see into the future, and to be honest, Scripture isn’t too clear in terms of guidelines of receiving and telling prophecies, though this may be because this world is falling deeper and deeper into sin and distancing itself further from Him, but that’s another topic.”
I think with what the Bible has given us, it is clear enough that Jaeson Ma prediction is not from the LORD; I think the template of Deuteronomy 18 in the link above in C3 was good enough for the Old Testament and New Testament times that there was no need for further modifying details of how to handle prophecies given, and we should seriously consider what “little” or lot has has been given to us in the Scriptures.
C6.) “It seemed like because he had multiple visions and those visions seemed to be confirmed by brothers and sisters surrounding him who all believed very much in similar things potentially occurring, he also truly believed it would happen.”
Whether or not Jaeson Ma sincerely believes what he believes concerning the Tsunami LA prophecies is rather besides the point, since false prophets can be sincere too. I think this might be a further indictment of the danger of the type of Christianity that run off of speculative dreams, “visions”, etc., and prophecies rather than the Word of God. It breeds speculations that also gives Christ a bad testimony to the world when alleged prophecies do not happen; and what’s more, whereas fellow believers should be Biblical and cautioning about the tearful trails of false propheces given, often times in some circles they just help egg each other on with moving on to the next “prophecies” and forgetting about the past false ones. This has been my experience as a younger Christian.
C7.) “While I’m not saying I support going around giving out false prophecies, how would you be able to tell what a real prophecy is?”
See C3.
C8.) “The only possible solution I can fathom is receiving an possible vision, waiting until it happens, then coming out and saying that you had a vision of it happening.”
I think Biblically, true prophecies are meant to be given to God’s people rather than just kept to oneself; if you recall from reading the first post on Jaeson Ma, I document Jaeson Ma saying that there was a woman who predicted 9/11; my thing is, it seems that if it was real, why did she not warn everybody before? I hope my friend you understand that I am rather at pains when I see people making prohecies ahead of time, and they don’t come to past (hurting the cause of Christ), while these same group of people can also say they have a track record of accurate predications AFTER the fact.
C9.) “I wanted to make this question unbiased and hopefully it didn’t sound like an attack. But a response would be appreciated! I’m genuinely curious as to what you think, haha!”
I do not see this as an attack, and I hope you do not see this as an attack on you personally my friend. Your comments are appreciated, as I’m sure others wonder the same thing and will read this.
Mmm, it’s refreshing to engage in discussion with a fellow believer. Thank you for correcting me where I was wrong, especially with the parts concerning Scripture, I was writing in a rush and was quantifying verses, something I shouldn’t have been doing. Of course, Scripture is perfect.
In response to C12, “Along with the flowers, I wrote a note that explained how God lovingly created and purposefully shaped them to be who they are now, and to be BEAUTIFUL! I thanked them for being who they are, because they are loved by Him!” (Taken from his YouTube video info). And in the video, he does go around telling people that Jesus loves them after giving them a note, at least identifying himself as a Christian. And the video obviously didn’t capture every second, so who knows; it’s possible he was able to share the gospel to some people, because he even ends up praying for someone (which is caught on video).
In response to C10, the way I’ve (and brothers/sisters/leaders around me) have interpreted that passage is that these people claimed to have been doing apparently magnificent things on Earth for Jesus, whereas their hearts are actually quite selfish and they did it for their own glory. People like Benny Hinn come to mind, but Jaeson Ma doesn’t. Here is also my response to C2: Do I believe that his prophecy was false? Yes. Because it did not come to pass. But I feel like he’s being condemned as someone who is actually unsaved.
I think as I’m writing this post, I’m also understanding what I was getting at. The issue, I feel, is that just by the prophecies Jaeson made that did not come to pass, he is already painted here as an unbeliever, merely someone masquerading as a teacher (I am not speaking for you or anyone on this wordpress, but this is the vibe I received while reading through posts). While I do not deny that false prophecies are definitely sins, I agree with PC, who made the point that God will take care of false teachers (2 Peter), meaning of course that we should be concerned, but ultimately it’s not going to be us that judges him. Everything else (basically, the fruits) in Ma’s life points to a man of Christ, of course a man who struggles with sin, yet a heart that strives to be a true disciple who picks up his cross (literally, if you know about the evangelism he used to do at Bruin Walk on UCLA’s campus). By one act, giving prophecies that did not come to pass, (albeit committed multiple times), he becomes a false prophet, yet none of the fruit he bears seems to matter, which in all honesty and bluntness, sucks because that can only mean he’s lead himself and many other people to hell by teaching them what he believes.
I’m thankful that you took the time to reply to my posts and correct me where I was wrong. A question that still makes me think is that (for the sake of argument, let’s assume the woman really did predict 9/11), perhaps she didn’t tell others because of the fear of being wrong. After all, that’s a rather huge statement to make as well. For Jaeson, possibly, (I don’t want to speak for Jaeson or his friends who received visions) because there is a similar urgency in the “intense” visions he and his friends received, wouldn’t it make some sense for Jaeson to share with as many people as possible, unlike that woman did, just in case the vision came to pass? It must just suck that he really thought his vision came from God (it could have come from God, or it might not have, whether it was prophetic or not) seemingly as a prophetic vision, especially because those around him also had similar visions and he finds out all the worry and caution he’d been giving to others out of a sincere heart only leads to him being condemned as a false prophet (which I’m not denying in the sense that he gave prophecies that did not come to pass)
Sorry, this post is probably incoherent but I draw some of what I say or imply from here:http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PW/k/1177/False-Prophet.htm
I think it’s worth taking a look at, because Jaeson is a false prophet according to the definition of his prophecies not coming to pass, yet his fruit aren’t the fruits depicted of false teachers. He always points to Christ, and doesn’t attempt to turn people away from God (I can say at least that much after listening to him speak twice, and also reading his blogs and listening to his songs). I’m still not completely sure of what I think, and I understand your passion for false prophecies to cease because that IS a huge problem. It’s just a bit confusing.
Hey Curious,
I thought I respond to this in piece-meal fashion.
C16.) “Mmm, it’s refreshing to engage in discussion with a fellow believer. Thank you for correcting me where I was wrong, especially with the parts concerning Scripture, I was writing in a rush and was quantifying verses, something I shouldn’t have been doing. Of course, Scripture is perfect.”
I am grateful that you are willing to discuss this with Scripture in mind, and that is refreshing since it does feel to me that many of the comments here on Veritas Domain concerning Jaeson Ma does not make the conscious attempt to put Scripture in the forefront in evaluating this controversy. Let us be discerning as we dialogue with each other, going back to the Scripture as the Bereans!
C17.) “(Taken from his YouTube video info). And in the video, he does go around telling people that Jesus loves them after giving them a note, at least identifying himself as a Christian. And the video obviously didn’t capture every second, so who knows; it’s possible he was able to share the gospel to some people, because he even ends up praying for someone (which is caught on video).”
Do you have the link to this youtube video? I am willing to revise what I wrote about the flowers giving incident; I thought I remember he gave flowers to some random girls and they just left without him giving any reference about Christ; but I’m willing to retract my statement and re-edit my original blog entry’s reference to that incident, so that it does not distract from what I believe the main issue is: the false prophecy of Jaeson Ma.
C18.) “In response to C10, the way I’ve (and brothers/sisters/leaders around me) have interpreted that passage is that these people claimed to have been doing apparently magnificent things on Earth for Jesus, whereas their hearts are actually quite selfish and they did it for their own glory. People like Benny Hinn come to mind, but Jaeson Ma doesn’t.
Response: Concerning Matthew 7:22-23, I would not disagree with your statement, “I’ve (and brothers/sisters/leaders around me) have interpreted that passage is that these people claimed to have been doing apparently magnificent things on Earth for Jesus, whereas their hearts are actually quite selfish and they did it for their own glory.” Perhaps my contention is the point that Jaeson Ma would not come into mind as fitting that category described in Matthew 7; I do not think we can fully rule out that Matthew 7 does not apply to Jaeson Ma (or anyone for sure, for the record). Though I do have to be cautious to say that we cannot know with 100% accuracy someone’s heart, of whether or not they are doing things out of selfishness, there are however things that I find bothersome about Jaeson Ma with his pursuit of things that looks more like the model of a celebrity pastor (which would put a lot more premium focus on glorifying oneself and one’s ministry than other model of pastoring) that I addressed previously here: https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/jaeson-ma-epitome-of-the-unbiblical-hipster-and-celebrity-pastor/ . I say this with a sober heart and preaching this to my own heart as well, but when I think the Gospel actually recorded Jesus being angry enough to turn over tables in the beginning and the end of his ministry because religious people were making the things of God into a market affair, all of us should be careful of spiritual leaders marketing things. But I don’t want to digress too far, my only point is that we ought to be careful not to say that Matthew 7 cannot at all apply to Jaeson Ma.
C19.) “Here is also my response to C2: Do I believe that his prophecy was false? Yes. Because it did not come to pass. But I feel like he’s being condemned as someone who is actually unsaved.”
Response: I do not believe I wrote that Jaeson Ma is not saved, nor recall anyone saying that in the comment section, but when we consult the Bible, it does seem that the Scripture does not mention about believers making false prophecies. In fact, I do think from my posts and earlier comments about Matthew 8, when someone makes false prophecy, he or she should realize it’s not a light sin, and the false prophecy itself should be sufficient ground for one to avoid simply thinking they are still ok in their walk with God or think their assurance of salvation is impeccable.
C20.) “I think as I’m writing this post, I’m also understanding what I was getting at. The issue, I feel, is that just by the prophecies Jaeson made that did not come to pass, he is already painted here as an unbeliever, merely someone masquerading as a teacher (I am not speaking for you or anyone on this wordpress, but this is the vibe I received while reading through posts).”
See C19.
C21.) “While I do not deny that false prophecies are definitely sins, I agree with PC, who made the point that God will take care of false teachers (2 Peter), meaning of course that we should be concerned, but ultimately it’s not going to be us that judges him.”
I agree that God will be the ultimate judge and the one who “take care” of false teacher; I leave Jaeson Ma’s eternal fate up to the Lord. What we have done here on Veritas Domain have simply been to practice Ephesians 5:11, of exposing what is wrong and warning Christians to be careful of Jaeson Ma’s prophecies. You mentioned 2 Peter, and that same book also goes about exposing false prophets and teachers, most explicit of all in chapter 2, which I believe I am following in the same vein in my blog posts. When I write, I am not so much pronouncing Jaeson Ma’s eternal fate as I am pointing out dangerous errors of someone who is a teacher/pastor.
C22.) “Everything else (basically, the fruits) in Ma’s life points to a man of Christ, of course a man who struggles with sin, yet a heart that strives to be a true disciple who picks up his cross (literally, if you know about the evangelism he used to do at Bruin Walk on UCLA’s campus).”
I know I need to be reminded of this in my own life, but being right in other areas of life does not mean that I’m off the hook in other area of life that I’m not right in; I think the same applies in the instance of Jaeson Ma and his false prophecy. Were you at UCLA and a part of Passion church? I ask that because I am wondering if you know him personally and are in a place to speak truth to him about these matters.
C23.) “By one act, giving prophecies that did not come to pass, (albeit committed multiple times), he becomes a false prophet, yet none of the fruit he bears seems to matter, which in all honesty and bluntness, sucks because that can only mean he’s lead himself and many other people to hell by teaching them what he believes. ”
I don’t doubt Jaeson Ma has been used by God as an instrument to point people to Jesus, as I know of a man who eventually got saved through hearing him (that guy did eventually got involved with more Biblically solid church and fellowship). But I can’t help but to also think about the people that would have been stumbled because of his false predictions and how it hurt the cause of Christ! By the way, I don’t think it’s the case that Jaeson Ma has made only one false prophecy; in fact I think he has a tendency to make prophecies, and be among and promote people who make false prophecies, so it’s not just an instance of just one “mistake.” Maybe that should be the subject of future posts here, but to be honest with you, I am rather weary of people questioning my motive of this being unloving. It might seem rather harsh to point out his false prophecies, but I think that’s because the Bible (and God) has such a high love for truth. I think that Jaeson Ma as a teacher of the things of God is in dangerous territory because James 3:1 states, “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a [a]stricter judgment..” That same passage goes on to address the subject of speech and things said, since it says in verse 2, “For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in [b]what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.” I think the proper attitude in response to these posts here on veritas domain should be more about how it “sucks” of what Jaeson Ma’s false prophecies are doing to the cause of Christ.
C24.) “seemingly as a prophetic vision, especially because those around him also had similar visions and he finds out all the worry and caution he’d been giving to others out of a sincere heart only leads to him being condemned as a false prophet”
I don’t think it’s possible to speak out of a “sincere heart” a false prophecy; I think it’s probably one of the most arrogant thing anyone can do to confuse one’s own voice for that of God. I know what I say might sound harsh, but bear with me. I think the crux of the issue with Jaeson Ma and those he influences is that too often there is not solid teaching that makes it clear that we “hear” God from His Word, the Bible and not speculate only in our minds whether dreams and heresay is God’s Word; in addition, I think Hebrews 1:1-3 makes the case that the ways of God speaking in extrabiblical revelatory dreams and visions are now cease in this dispensation.
C25.) “yet his fruit aren’t the fruits depicted of false teachers. He always points to Christ, and doesn’t attempt to turn people away from God (I can say at least that much after listening to him speak twice, and also reading his blogs and listening to his songs). I’m still not completely sure of what I think, and I understand your passion for false prophecies to cease because that IS a huge problem. It’s just a bit confusing.”
I do think Ma does not always preach the Gospel in ways that is faithful to the model presented in the New Testament and I might dig myself a deeper hole by having to explain myself more. I know I would have to further document this to support what I’m going to say, but I think Ma have a bad understanding of the relationship of law and grace, an imbalance on God’s love, is against the Law to show our sins and need for a Savior, preaches more of “God has a wonderful plan for your life…” rather than God’s holiness against sin as the main crux for why we need Jesus, and often frames the gospel as existential therapeutic self-help for meaning in life rather than being gospel centered and bringing upfront man is an enemy of God as the biggest problem, and why the work of Jesus Christ is even more amazing…He died for His enemies to save them from Hell!
My friend, I hope you keep on clinging closer to the Bible. I don’t want this to be personally harsh on you; do you want me to email you off line about any other private reservation or concern?
First of all, I just want to thank you for allowing me to not only question you, but also for answering with responses that make me really want to respect you (which, trust me, I do). Though I do not know you, I can tell you strive to be a modern Berean, which is definitely encouraging because too many “Christians” today often lose sight of the Biblical truth.
Though I am not going to respond to all points (mainly because I think I can finally see a lot of where you’re coming from) here is the YouTube video. I am not going to say anything else to support him, but just objectively, here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGFsIM0lz7I
I want you to know that I really do understand how this issue is of grave importance, as is holding all of those whom claim the gift of prophecy accountable. I’m not going to say I agree with ALL of the things, but I see your Scriptural foundation, and I tried my best to see things through your perspective and reevaluate my own. While I may disagree with some things about Jaeson and other topics, I want you to know that you’ve been a big blessing in clarifying truths in this area (an area that I honestly don’t have too much knowledge in) and for continual encouragements to strive to continue my reading and understanding of His Word.
Please don’t think you were too harsh on me, I love getting things out in the open for discussion, especially because I think truth can only be found as you look at it from all different perspectives; not just one person’s interpretation of one part of Scripture, but different viewpoints that can all be true (like Matthew 7 in our case). I thank God for brothers(?) like you who do care about His Word and His bride (us) because many people these days, in youthful passions, do seek only to prove themselves right (which I might have come out sounding like; if so, I apologize) and they can start losing sight of God amidst their passion.
As iron sharpens iron, let’s continue to learn more and sharpen those around us so that we may sharpen as well! Thank you for not being afraid to say what you needed to say; too many wishywashy people are afraid to offend others to an unhealthy point, but there is also a time and place for correction and standing up for your beliefs, so thank you for showing me that grace.
Keep fighting the good fight!
Hi Curious,
Thank you for visiting Domain for Truth. We pray that the Truth of God’s Word will resonate in your life now on earth and in the future. Grace.
That is also my prayer, Curious.
Thank you for the response, SLIMJIM.
You’re welcome!
Curious,
Thanks for the comment…and for giving the link to the flowers issue…I will look at it. If we can be of any encouragement, feel free to let us know…the other guys that blog with me (Evangelz, Andy) are brothers whom I believe are driven by the Word and also have a pastoral heart.
May God show His grace in your life, and allow us all to continue to grow.
Hi Curious,
Thank you for your careful comments and interaction. Which church do you attend?
Brother,
I’d like to suggest that you’ve misunderstood the situation because your understanding of NT prophets is incorrect. Due to this misunderstanding, you’ve mistakenly attributed this situation to someone’s poor character rather than what I believe it really is, a maturing and (perhaps at times overly)dramatic personality.
I’ve been a missionary in Asia for most of the last 8 years, the majority of which has been in a “Creative-Access-Nation” that is hostile to missionaries. Although I’ve not met Jaeson, we have many of the same friends and run in similar circles (college students / 1040 missions / tentmaking / Asia / Asian-American / etc). I have only heard reports and seen evidence that he is a faithful brother, although like all of us he isn’t perfect and of course he is not above making potentially big mistakes one day (all the more reason to pray for him).
My personality and approach in ministry is rather low-key (I guess you have to be that way to last in a creative-access-country), so I tend to be a bit uncomfortable with artists and high-profile ministry. I think artists are a puzzling group to work with and sometimes I feel they come across as a bit too extreme. But, then again, maybe that’s why they grab our attention and inspire us to a higher level of beauty and excellence.
I also think that my experience of the prophetic (usually dreams, though maybe a vision here or there) is that these things happen more often when you are opening new beachheads to the gospel among people groups where there is generational demon worship, etc. So, I really don’t expect most people in America to have much experience with this even though we all have the HS and 1 Corinthians 14 exhorts us to especially pursue developing our prophetic gifting. It’s understandable that this would be an area where the US Church has a lot of disagreements because the environment doesn’t often force one to make use of it. You definitely don’t have these discussions in the hills of Thailand and Burma!
But another point is that, just like the other gifts, dreams/visions can be confusing at first and you have to pray a lot and share with accountability partners to get a clear understanding of what they probably mean. Even then, I don’t really know for sure what the dream/vision means until after the thing occurs. Often I will be accurate on some core points but they come about in a way that is kind of different from what I expected. For example, I had a dream in 2008 of a girl coming to Christ at a Chinese orphanage the night before I led a team there to share for a week. I wrote the dream down and it left me feeling a bit confused so I put it out of my mind and set my focus on our work there. The last night of the camp a girl came to know JC and I stumbled across my journal, in which the exact conditions of the dream were met with this person and how she came to faith. After the fact it all made sense, but beforehand I kind of put it out of my mind because I didn’t really know what to make of it. I feel like this kind of thing is pretty common, actually.
I’m just saying that clear prophetic interpretations aren’t immediately obvious and interpretations are influenced by the person’s other faculties, especially with dreams/visions. I think Wayne Grudem (author of Systematic Theology) writes well on the Biblical basis for this understanding of NT prophecy and I encourage you to check it out.
To your points: I’d like to raise issue with Objection 1 and Objection 2.
Objection 1- False prophets are defined, according to Matthew 7, as those who engage in lots of evil behavior and we are exhorted to watch their lives closely. If we watch closely, we will be able to identify them because they will only be able to bear evil behavior/fruit. In Jaeson’s case, the only evil behavior you have brought against him is that this vision hasn’t yet come about in the way you expected it to come about. Remember, verse 18 says that a bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit and verse 20 says by your fruits you will recognize them. If this accusation is to hold water then the passage says he CANNOT bear good fruit. Instead, you’ve conceded the testimony of others that he has borne a lot of truly good fruit and this one questionable thing.
I don’t think NT prophesy and OT prophesy are identical as I explain later, so I don’t think this one point qualifies as evil behavior. Maybe Jaeson doesn’t agree with my understanding of NT prophesy and believes his pronouncement to be infallible, literal and bound to happen before, say 2011. In that case I imagine he would feel pretty conflicted right now. But, because Jesus says a good tree’s fruit is all good and a bad tree’s fruit is all bad, then I would still attribute that to incomplete doctrine on this one point, rather than a sweeping character problem. As a side note, alternative interpretations abound: if all the LA believers were to have sold their houses in 2006 (as some did when they took these prophesies seriously) they would have fared quite well amidst the financial tsunami of 08-09 that wiped out huge stores of wealth, devastated the livelihood of tens of thousands, and swept away entire branches of the entertainment industry that defines the city.
If we look closer at the passage, I believe Jesus was speaking into a context of a religious authority that used shows of devotion as a way to perpetrate injustice in the name of God. Jesus was effectively distinguishing himself from the false prophets that filled the various religious orders of his day and inviting others to closely examine his own life to become convinced that His teaching was from God, not the enemy. The reason his listeners were to be so careful in paying attention to all the fruit in a person’s life was that the wolves Jesus was distinguishing himself from populated most of the religious order of the day and were therefore steeped in seemingly good works, which, upon closer examination, were ALL entirely corrupt. None of those leaders bore any truly good fruit and Jesus told the audience that if they looked closely then they would be able to clearly see that fact.
The sanctification process means that we will be more conformed to the image of Christ over time but that will be mixed with deeper awareness of the sinfulness of our flesh and the limits of our finite faculties (among which is my mental capacity and the natural blind spots of my personality).
Given the larger context of a faithful ministry, isn’t it less presumptuous for us to interpret miscommunication in these visions to an area of this brother that is still maturing in knowledge and sanctification, rather than suggest his entire life and ministry is corrupt? Matthew 7 says it’s either one or the other when it comes to false prophets, so you have to go all in to advocate for one of those explanations. Remember, though, this is our brother we’re talking about! Be careful, because we are exhorted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 4 not to judge a fellow servant of God since God alone will bring to light the hidden secrets of the heart during the final judgement.
Objection 2 – I was interested by your use of 2 Peter 1 because I think that it actually advances the opposite of what you’ve taken it to mean.
2 Peter 1:18-21–
“and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. [But] We have even more sure the prophetic word (ie: Scripture), to which you would do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place….But know this first of all, that no prophesy *of Scripture* is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for none of those prophesies were ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God”
Which you understood to mean:
“to say that a true prophet of God can misinterpret the true prophecy God has given Him is impossible”
But actually in this passage Peter’s point is that his personal revelation of seeing Christ baptized and hearing the Father’s approval, as well of his revelation of those words again on the mount of transfiguration, are both less reliable than the prophecies we find in Scripture. Peter spends the first half of this chapter making an important point. He is emphasizing the centrality of Scripture’s promises as the key to understanding a true knowledge of Him unlocking power in the Christian life to be transformed into a state of godliness, thereby escaping the corruption of the world by lust.
He then cites the excellence of his own visions/experiences and says that they are still open to interpretation and relatively unreliable when contrasted with Scripture, which did not come about through man’s interpretation. You see, the point is that even Peter’s spectacular visions WERE STILL a matter of interpretation, yet the prophecies *of Scripture* are in no way a matter of interpretation.
It is into this context of prophetic gifting that Paul exhorts his church in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21, “do not despise prophetic utterances, but test every one and hold onto the good ones”. Scripture is the infallible sieve through which we sift the messy prophecies of a growing, fallible Church.
My charge to you:
If, as you say, a modern prophet is one who simply interprets Scripture, then the equivalent of a modern false prophet would actually be one who misinterprets Scripture, and in effect misattributes the authority of God’s Scripture to the opinions of the speaker. If we are to deal with this kind of person according to the OT protocol, then he or she should be taken outside the camp (whatever that is now) and stoned to death. Are you willing to advocate this sort of treatment for those who misquote Scripture, or do you cede that your understanding of prophecy in the modern context is incomplete? If it is the former, then let’s evaluate the Matthew 7 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 passages to determine which one of us should die. If it’s the latter, then I believe we can give our brother Jaeson the benefit of the doubt and redouble our prayers for him.
I really appreciate your call to hold Scripture in high regard and encourage the Church to “test every prophetic utterance, holding onto the good” as well as to “search the Scriptures daily” like the Bereans.
Let’s also be careful that we don’t let what was true of Paul become true of our brother: “At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them.” 2Tim4:16
Brother,
I just saw this comment and will get back to this at a later date; sermon preparation keeps me at bay.
You have a blessed Lord’s day brother.
Hello. I was just wondering if you had responded to the previous post by “Brother”? It seems like it’s not here anymore and I was really interested in the dialogue that was about to take place. Thanks.
Hey brother WD,
It has been a busy week, I’ll try to get to it tonight (forgotten about it actually). What do you think of the points made here throughout the comment section and post?
Hi WD,
We are glad that this venue is edifying you.
Hey EvangelZ,
It’s not that I find it edifying as much as it is interesting.
Hey bud,
It looks like my post is missing. I think it would speak a lot to your integrity to post a reply soon. It would also say a lot if you didn’t.
Cheers
Brother,
Your comment was not deleted.
My response was a lot longer than expected but you can find it here: https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/a-closer-look-at-another-defense-of-jaeson-mas-false-prophecy/
Hey SlimJim. I would need to see the post again to respond. Was there a reason why you took it off? I really appreciate this dialogue that is formed here on this site.
Hey WD,
I have been busy and only completed the response here: https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/a-closer-look-at-another-defense-of-jaeson-mas-false-prophecy/
WD,
Is there a way you can provide us a snapshot of your dialogue with Jaeson Ma brother? If you feel this is too personal and prefer not to–I understand. No pressure brother. May the Lord blesses your walk in Him.
here is his message to me.
Thank you for your concern for truth. I apologize I am not able to get back to everyone’s emails as I get literally hundreds a day and don’t get to read through most of them. In short, all prophecy is to be tested 1 Thess 5:19-20, but not rejected.
Prophetic revelation is not final, it can be changed or altered through necessary repentance, prayer and obedience to God’s commands. Examples given: Sodom and Gomorrah, Jonah and Ninevah, King Hezekiah, King David, etc words of judgment were given, but through prayer and intercession judgments could be lessened or averted all together.
My prophecies about 2006 and recently 2011 are prophetic words of what I am sensing, but not emphatically stating. I make it clear that through prayer and intercession they can either be minimized or averted completely. I believe this is what happened in 2006 and I pray what will happen in 2011. Yet, I am receiving strong prophetic revelation that something is impending and the Church needs to pray for mercy in the midst of natural disaster or judgment in order to be prepared and not ignorant. Prophecy can also be interpreted spiritually as I stated in my last blog post in regards to Newsong Church and revival. If you also noted, I prophesied a potential earthquake on 4/4 last year weeks before it happened, and it happened. 1 Corinthians 13-14 said “we can all prophesy one by one” it also says “we all see in part” meaning that none of us can see accurately 100% but with accountability to the church, the apostles/prophets/elderes, and ultimately to God’s Word we can discern and understand true prophecy from false prophecy. Paul makes it clear we are not to despise prophecy but test prophecy, meaning those in the church are given a margin of error, that is why it must be tested. We are not living in an OT dispensation, but a NT dispensation where all can hear and prophesy, but not all our prophets. This is a deeper discussion.
I would encourage you to read a few books by Dr. Wayne Grudem “The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today” Dr. Bill Hammon “Prophets and Personal Prophecy”, “The Prophetic Ministry” Rick Joyner, Surprised by the Voice of God, Jack Deere and many others.
I hope this helps. Keep seeking first the kingdom brother.
JMA
Thank you posting this WD.
[…] to notice that some of the objections people had were being repeated again and again so I wrote A SPECIFIC ENTRY addressing them because, as I stated earlier, it would provide an easy way to offer a link for […]
Thanks for posting this too. It’s good to see Jaeson Ma’s thoughts in writing.
hi.
I was introduced to Jaeson Ma’s ministry by a friend.so, as how a Christian ought to be, I did a background check on his ministry. Although I am not fully exposed to his ministry yet, but I found these few post of Jaeson Ma rather interesting. The danger of his false prophesies. Honestly speaking, I would say that the gift of prophesy has ceased. i can’t remember which NT verse that quoted it but the verse clearly stated the purpose of prophesies.
I was doing my bible reading and currently I am on 2 Peter 2 and I just couldn’t stop myself from linking verses from 2 Peter 2 with the issue here about false prophets. as we all know and aware of the danger of false prophets, I will urge that as Christians we should always check what is being teach in ministry with the Word of God.
What I am concern here is the young Christians who are still baby when it comes to the Word of God. How that without the proper sound teaching about the Word of God can lead them to divert away from the Word of God and dilute the Word of God with secular practices or secular philosophies.
Sister, your concern is the same as mine. Pray that all those who read this will be stirred to seek God and the Scriptures more, rather than emotions and what others are going about saying “Thus says the Lord…”
Hi Concerned Sister In Christ,
We are thankful that you are concerned about Jaeson Ma’s false prophecies. I don’t find his prophecies interesting nor edifying. I pray that he will realize his mistakes instead of trying to justify himself regarding his correct understanding of prophecies. Thank you for visiting and commenting.
Matthew 7:15-23, “15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will [a]know them by their fruits. [b]Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [c]know them by their fruits. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [d]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’”
yes,brothers. As i move down further through the verses of 2 Peter 2, i just couldn’t stop myself from linking what is happening today in regards to the work of sharing the gospel. 2 Peter 2 : 17-22. ..how the verses described how fragile a young believer can be. How that a profess salvation could actually in truth, a false salvation. Being caught in the moment of emotions. As Christian, we should be aware that the life as a disciple of Christ is never going to be an easy path. So, it’s quite sad sometimes to see those that professed to be save, at the end backslide because they find that the word of God is too harsh for them. so, it is really important to highlight here that those of us who are mature Christian should guide and follow up with the young babe with the proper true teaching of the word of God.
Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find. Let us not depend on solely on the words that proceed from the man’s (pastor,priest,’apostle’,elder) mouth but rather depend on the written Word of God and be guide by the Holy Spirit.
Keep on living as a light and thank you once again for your encouragement. I hope your words would mean a lot to the many who have come upon this page.
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All of this is moot. Jaeson doesn’t claim to be speaking for the Lord. He says, “Again, all I am sharing is what I sense, it is not fact, but it is something I am believing more and more could be a very possible prophetic reality.”
He says he’s sharing a “possible” prophetic reality. He’s not saying “thus saith the Lord”. So all of this is moot about him being a false prophet.
Eddie,
Two questions:
1.) Did you read any other posts I have written on Jaeson Ma that documents he is describing his prediction as prophetic? I think a closer look will reveal that your objection does not stand; if you disagree, I think the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate and document language of “’possible’ prophetic reality” in the original contexts of Ma’s declaration.
2.) Where did you get your quote from: “Again, all I am sharing is what I sense, it is not fact, but it is something I am believing more and more could be a very possible prophetic reality.” Is that from Jaeson Ma, and if so, where did you get this from him?