Yesterday I posted Who Is God? Trinity Debate: Dr. James White vs Bro. Joe Ventilacion. This was a debate between Christian apologist James White and a defender of the cult Iglesia ni Cristo. Iglesia ni Cristo denies the deity of Christ.
I want to address one of the arguments that Joe Ventilacion threw out there during his opening presentation for his anti-Trinitarian position. He bases his argument from 1 Timothy 1:17 which states:
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
From this verse’s statement that God is immortal this is what Ventilacion argues around the 59:30 minute mark:
When Christ died, did God die? And if he were to say that the second person only died but not the first and third persons, so for three days your Trinity is incomplete! Because two are alive and one is dead. So how would you call that? How would you call that? Is it a Trinity or is it a ‘Two-inity?’ It’s up to you to make that decision. But he has an incomplete God for the three days that Jesus died. Why did Jesus die? Because Jesus is not the God of the Bible.
Despite Joe Ventilacion’s smirk and laughter from the audience from Iglesia ni Cristo members in the audience to the question of “When Christ died, did God die?” it is not as strong of an argument against the Trinity as they think it is.
- First we must get our definition right with the Trinity. Why? Because those who are refuting the Trinity need to get the definition right or else they risk the high probability of not refuting the actual doctrine of the Trinity in their arguments but instead commit a strawman fallacy.
- What is the doctrine of the Trinity? I thought the debate laid out the doctrine of the Trinity well; the doctrine of the Trinity is the doctrine that “within the One Being that is God there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal Persons, namely the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.“
- Equally important is defining the doctrine of Incarnation. The Incarnation is when the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son, became fully a man while still being fully God. Thus, in Jesus He is both God and man; He has both a divine nature and a human nature. Colossians 2:9 affirms this doctrine when Paul referring to Christ stated “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.“
- There is two prong to Ventilacion’s argument against the Trinity from the death of Christ. Ventilacion’s first argument was posed in the form of a question: “When Christ died, did God die?”
- Again if we remember the doctrine of the Incarnation we would remember that Jesus has both a divine nature and a human nature.
- With the death of Christ it was Christ’s human nature that died and not His divine nature.
- Thus in light of the doctrine of Incarnation we do not see 1 Timothy 1:17 pose any problem since Jesus’ divine nature continued to be immortal.
- Therefore this question certainly does not refute the Trinity when one consider the definition of the Trinity and the doctrine of Incarnation.
- The second argument that Ventilacion presents here is that the death of Christ would make an incomplete God. This is more lengthier than the first argument. Ventilacion said, “And if he were to say that the second person only died but not the first and third persons, so for three days your Trinity is incomplete! Because two are alive and one is dead. So how would you call that? How would you call that? Is it a Trinity or is it a ‘Two-inity?'”
- First let us touch on a matter of clarity on a point that Ventilacion correctly anticipated: Trinitarians would indeed say that Jesus died for our sins and that it was not the first and third Person (Father and Holy Spirit) who died. Saying this does not mean we neglect the other other members of the Trinity and their involved in our salvation; rather the other two members of the Trinity have different and distinct roles in the salvation of believers.
- Ventilacion assumes that for three days from when Jesus was buried to the Resurrection the Trinity was “incomplete” “because two are alive and one is dead.” Building from that assumption he postulates that there is at that time not a Trinity but a Being with two Persons, a “Two-inity” so to speak.
- A major problem here is Ventilacion’s assumption that Christ’s death means He ceased to exist during those three days. It is biblically unwarranted. We must have a biblical view of death. Death does not mean a person cease from existence altogether.
- At Jesus’ death, Jesus as a Person was separated from His body. But Jesus existing in a conscious state outside His body would be the case just like any other human person since Jesus is Incarnate. This state of humans existing outside the body can be seen in 2 Corinthians 5:8 when believers who are absent from the body in death would then be present with the Lord.
- We’re not just making a speculative inference. The Bible specifically teach that Jesus existed even after His death on the Cross.
- As Jesus was dying He told the repentant criminal that “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus did not cease existing. That’s true even on the very day Christ died.
- Even before Christ’s physical resurrection He was already still alive in His Spirit: “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit” (2 Peter 3:18).
- As further proof that Jesus was still existing during those three days we might ask what was Jesus doing during that period. Following 2 Peter 3:18 the next verse goes on to say “in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison” (2 Peter 3:19). Christ obviously did not cease to exist after He died because He was going to a place and preached, activities which presupposes one is alive and existing.
- If Jesus continue to exist as a Person even after His death then Ventilacion’s argument loses its force since it assumes that Jesus would cease existing during those three days.
- Therefore there is no disappearance of the Trinity during the three days’ duration between Christ’s death on the Cross and the Resurrection.
- Given that the Son is a member of the Triune God, the Son being God means that there is more to Jesus than His humanity. Thus even when Jesus died on the Cross in His humanity, the Son as God did not cease existing. If He ceased to exist altogether we would have a serious problem: All of God’s creation and creatures would cease to exist in light of the truth that Jesus is the one who hold all things together (Colossians 1:17). Rather because Jesus is God He can continue to exercise Providence (God’s prerogative) even as His human nature experienced death during those three days.
Ventilacion kept pounding the same untenable, two-dimensional argument over and over. I was getting as frustrated as White!
Wow that was confirmation that I was not the only one that found Ventilacion rather frustrating! I thought he was very arrogant and condescending. Even with his first critique of Dr. White when Dr. White asked Ventilacion for clarification about what verse did he had in mind from the quote from White’s book Ventilacion began the snide remarks that Dr. White doesn’t know his own book. I also did not appreciate Ventilacion allowing Dr. White to speak when his question was an either/or fallacy and Dr. White had to explain why there was a complex question fallacy but Ventilacion kept on interrupting him and asked the same question over and over again.
Nevertheless I’m glad Dr. White debated him as this is a growing cult. Have you heard of it before? There’s some followers I know in Southern California and the followers debate like this guy. I heard someone say it is the third largest religion in the Philippines.
No, I had never heard of this cult before. I just bounced around to various portions of the video yesterday but I will listen to it’s entirety tomorrow at work. Yes, what I did see of Ventilacion he was extremely arrogant.
blashphemy
It is. I’m curious if there are cults like this one and others like Jehovah’s Witnesses that operate where you live that is anti-Trinity? I ask because sometimes when I travel overseas at places that are still heavily mission fields it seems the cults have gotten there too which blows my mind away.
ya..they don’t know that Christ is all three…i feel sad for all people who deny Christ’s true identity
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
Thanks for the reblog, have a blessed Sunday!
You’re very welcome Pastor Jim and likewise my friend 🙏
[…] via Argument against the Trinity? Jose Ventilacion on the death of Christ — The Domain for Truth […]
See also: http://www.watchman.org/profiles/pdf/iglesianicristoprofile.pdf
[…] up that post with my own critique of one of Joe Ventilacion’s argument titled “Argument against the Trinity? Joe Ventilacion on the death of Christ.” In this post I want to look at another of Mr. Ventilacion’s argument focusing on […]
In reality, the whole argument is ridiculous. John 1:1 – 14 provides the answer to the entire argument. If the Word was before the addition of the flesh it is still the same Word (Jesus) after it lays down the flesh. The Trinity existed long before Jesus became flesh.
I heartily agree with you. It’s ridiculous. I think John 1:1-14 is clear about Jesus’ divinity and incarnation.
To SLIMJIM you don’t know about the INC and never say about cult religion … If you are respected person don’t ever say that you can’t prove it…don’t just give comment negative about INC we invite you to search more in our bible mission because there are lots of verses proving that our Lord Jesus Christ is the son of God but not God. Jesus Christ is our saviour and redeemer. That’s why we called Church of Christ…The argument they mentioned is only a part of proving there’s only one God who created this world…respect people please if you want to be respected…if you want to learn more about INC you are welcome to search more …come to our chapel near your place….I repeat we are not cult…
Anita,
Are you going to address my post on the problem with Joe Ventilacion’s argument?
No, she will refer you to the “bible studies” led by a minister. Most members don’t know much beyond the cherrypicked verses or pieces of verses they are constantly regurgitated at twice weekly. They pay no attention to context. If they did read john 1 all the way through they would look at you and refer you to a minister; no critical thought process at all. Just like their debater they f!op around like a fish, read a partial verse out of context then smugly tell you they are using the bible while you are using opinion
To SLIMJIM you don’t know about the INC and never say about cult religion … If you are respected person don’t ever say that you can’t prove it…don’t just give comment negative about INC we invite you to search more in our bible mission because there are lots of verses proving that our Lord Jesus Christ is the son of God but not God. Jesus Christ is our saviour and redeemer. That’s why we called Church of Christ…The argument they mentioned is only a part of proving there’s only one God who created this world…respect people please if you want to be respected…if you want to learn more about INC you are welcome to search more …come to our chapel near your place….I repeat we are not cult…
Anita,
I would like to point out that all this time you haven’t dealt with the actual post that demonstrates how Mr. Ventilacion’s argument failed.
Anyone else reading this noticed that?
Atticus as if you know all members of INC . What if you are wrong to say that we didn’t know? Yes , our Minister lead the bible studies because we don’t inform people by our own opinion….we only depend what Bible says…we have lots of proof which all written in the Bible. Only the Bible will answer…the church is like one body with different functions. And our Ministers were the one will read the verses and teach. That is his duty….and our duty in the church is different from the Minister …..don’t say all members of INC we didn’t know the verses and indirectly telling us we are like you don’t know nothing…..please respect us….
For SLIMJIM, I repeat… don’t say our religion is cult…….I just invited you to see that we are not cult and more prove that our Father is only one God who created us. If you want to enlighten and see how we worship God .
Anita, how do you know that your ministers are telling you the truth? If the Bible itself warns of false teachers, how will/do you know you are not being led astray? Quoting Bible verses doesn’t prove anything, since that is what others would do as well.
Jeff Downs made a good point of how you know your ministers are telling you the truth given how you are asking everyone how do they know…
Anita, I challenge you to approach a minister with the first chapter of John and ask him to explain the whole thing to you and how it relates to Christ/God. I do no know all INC members but I know many and you just did what I said you would do; referred him to bible studies with a minister cause as a member its not your role to explain your faith. If your understanding of WHY you believe what you do is that “its in the bible and the ministers explain it to us” then how can you really understand what you believe? I would be very interested to hear the ministers response to the chapter I mentioned. Slimjim and others have rightly pointed out the speciousness of INC argument that since Jesus was dead the trinity did not exist for three days. They used direct quotes from the bible to Prove that Jesus himself said he would be in paradise THAT day! you keep saying “only the bible, not opinion” but those refuting you are quoting the bible. I ask you to answer the following:
– ACTS 20:28 the phrase “church of Christ” is translated “Churches of Christ” Church of God” ; it varies based on the version of the bible one uses yet this is pointed to as proof that INC is “The one true church” How is this proof?
-Where is specific reference to Felix Ysagun Manalo in the bible? Now when you quote me the passages about a bird of prey from the east….That is the INC’s interpretation and opinion of who and what those verses are referring to so how is that “only from the bible”
– INC ministers frequently refer to books by catholic and protestant authors during lessons when they can find statements that seem to support their claims; how is this “only from the bible”
I challenge you to read your bible completely, start with the book of john. ask God to guide you to truth. The INC admin intentionally keeps members blind to the whole bible and only refer to what they want to cherry pick.
one last question? today f you die what will happen to you? what bible verses support your belief of what will happen to you, I.E. what is the foundation of your belief? I hope you don’t need to ask a minister to find out.
Also Anita; tell me I am lying when I state the following:
– Most recent INC lessons are about how important it is to maintain ones membership in Gods “holy Church” and what is expected of those who do so. What is expected is as follows:
-Attend worship regularly
-Offer
-Obey
Now when it comes to obey they emphasize that the admin is put in place by God and one should not question the admin.
At least one prayer will have a part where it ask God to protect and guide “our beloved executive minister, Eduardo V. Manalo as he guides/leads us TO our salvation”
This is a repetitive theme of lessons as the admin wants to remind members of their duties so the do not “lose their salvation”.
Atticus,
I really appreciate your comments. It seems you are really knowledgeable about INC. God bless you brother.
Anita, even the INC’s beloved Lamsa version:
1 THE Word was in the beginning, and that very Word was with God, and God was that Word.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 Everything came to be by his hand; and without him not even one thing came to be of what was created.
4 The life was in him, and the life is the light of men.
The INC generally omits verse 3 and says the word was an idea in Gods mind. So God ran creation through the idea he had in his mind?
thanks, I feel sorry for the ones that sincerely feel they are serving God in the INC; it is hammered at them at least twice weekly and the “teachings” are constantly repeated. Questions are always referred to a minister but almost no members ask questions. I have been inside frequently, still attend and monitor(now they will tell members not to bring guest to services, just evangelical missions, LOL!)
how anyone with any kind of bible knowledge can attend one of their services and not be floored by the selective quoting and outright misrepresentation of the bible is amazing. they also totally misunderstand the position of those that support the deity of Christ and his integration as part of the Godhead and stay obsessed with the 1+1+1 argument and don’t grasp 1x1x1. If you give them verses that directly contradict their views the ALWAYS refer to the minister/admin.
The INC substitutes a hollow, superficial “duty” to the church where attendance, offering and obedience to the admin is more important that abiding in Christ and having Christ live in you.; they emphasize the importance of membership in their specific church. INC constantly emphasizes ones “duties” and how God will reward your “many sacrifices” They are more akin to the Pharisees than the early church they pretend to have re-birthed”
-screaming, over the top showy prayers
-constant “look at all the things the church has done; buildings we have built; this shows Gods is on our side”….
-a persecution complex where anyone that questions their beliefs or the motives of their leadership is persecuting them.
Ministers are moved around due to not meeting quotas but also to prevent too much familiarity in one area and the building of any kind of power base outside the Manalos and their inner circle.
The recent rift between EVM and his mom and brother angel was not over doctrine as “defenders” claim but family infighting over Angel and moms fear that EVM was gonna kill the goose that laid the golden egg with his money eating projects like the Philippine arena that the INC is so proud of.
If invited to “bible lesson” by this group I would suggest:
If you have a firm foundation of faith and know your references tell the inviter “certainly but first please come let me share my faith with you” watch them sweat…
attend and challenge(politely) their bizarre doctrines during the Q&A; almost certainly the minister will try to sidebar you if he sees you actually know the bible.(probably better than him).
Good afternoon Atticus, its 3pm here in Manila ,Phil.can i join your conversation with Ms Anita, well bible studies at the Iglesia Ni Cristo / Church of Christ / INC are better handled by the ministers rather than by ordinary members. Just like in a assembly line ,every section has a diff function , just like the human body ,it has diff parts for a particular function. The ministers with their bacground and training are much in a better position to expalin the verses and expound on INC beliefs and doctrines. Ordinary members make their own researches on biblical truths and if it happen that they do not understand something they can approach any local pastor to explain. If you are not satisfied or if you have doubts about the doctrines being preached , anybody is free to resign . Nobody is coerced to remain in the churched. Anybody can go , no hard feelings. And you are free to comeback too if you changed your mind. The offerings during worship services are voluntarily given , almost everybody seem to give , no percentages , no minimum / maximum amount , it is always from your hearts pleasure . The INC has big expenses but it doesnt ask for donations outside the church , every cent in its coffers is from voluntary contributions by members . These cash offerings are well kept, saved , spent and audited . Members have full trust in the church leadership or administration as it is called. If anybody wants to see the books , he can bring an accountant and check it for himself . If there are allegations of wrondoings or corruption in street parlance , its up to them . They are accountable to God and God , it is believed will act later . The members are not bothered if some officers may steal the money bec with the huge offerinngs twice a week and special offerings too , they cant take it all and they cant take it to their graves . Ha Ha Ha , theres plenty for everybody. Joking aside , God is watching.
INC members are not scrutinuos when it comes to Faith , One God , one Mediator is enough lesson to keep their membership in the church . They dont need to see the manna falling from heaven to be steadfast in their faith.
Persecutions are hearsay but dutiful members are loved and protected . They are visited when sick , anointed with oil and prayed for.When somebody is in need the hat is passed , when somebody is bullied it doesnt escape the eyes of concerned brows to keep peace .
The “infighting ” among EVM and his mother and siblings are far from the members radar , bec what is known only are things that happen in individual housholds . Members do not lift the curtain what who happens beyond their fence .what thet concern is working for their own salvation. Oh sorry Atticus , i have to run now , be back later . If you have anything to say , dont be shy 😊
Many in INC are afraid of freedom.
In the Shawshank Redemption movie, an old man who had spent all his life in prison was released. He was overtaken by depression and after a few weeks he could not cope with the freedom and hanged himself. The fear of freedom is a psychological condition. Animals who have spent a long time in cage; often do not want to leave it when the cage is opened. To be free requires courage. Those still under the Iglesia cult bondage experience the same.
Many in Iglesia are afraid of freedom. Many ex’s are overtaken by fear despite the fact they knew Iglesia is a lie. But each time they looked into a mirror they saw a coward and a hypocrite. Finally they decided that is enough of cowardice and hypocrisy. They have known the truth and they are going to spell it out. They wonft let the manipulations of a dead damned false prophet control them. There is no doubt that he was an impostor. He was just a cult leader and a pervert one at that.
Now instead of being a fool, they are enlightened. Their life has meaning and feel invigorated. Iglesia cultic influence is losing while their enlightenment is gaining momentum. They don’t want to be a part of the losers. The truth is in their camp and victory is theirs. Iglesia is doomed because truth is more powerful than all lies as light is more potent than darkness. If still you think Iglesia ni Manalo is a true religion prove it. If you can’t, then leave it. But whatever you do don’t be a hypocrite. You live only once. Live with dignity and prove that you are not a sheep of a cult leader but a man of courage and understanding.
If you remain inside that cult, before you die, you will come to your senses and regret having wasted your life(and money offerings) with this cult. You will regret for having contributed to an evil force, for being part of the army of darkness and for being the moral support for the bigots who hate other faiths inspired by the cultic doctrines that you uphold. By being an Iglesia you are part of the army of darkness. You are part of the same machinery of hate.
Sorry for this intellectual slap. I think you cultists deserve it. You must be awakened. This slap serves you right. You are weak and is afraid to face the truth. You are so brainwashed that you lost your ability to seek the truth. Now your mind is numb and you no more care. You donft give a damn whether your prophet and guru was a liar. You are a disappointment. Are you not ashamed of yourself?
As you see freedom from cult is not easy. This maniac Felix devised a mind control system that is frightening. His scare tactics are so terrorizing that most members, brainwashed in this cult are unable to think rationally. Iglesia are victims of a mind control freak.
-Cult Buster, ex inc
Will the Internet Slay the Dirty Cult of Manalo?
The truth about Felix Manalo has been one of the world’s best-kept secrets. For decades it has been virtually impossible to raise objections about the character of Felix Manalo in the Philippines, for anyone who raised such objections would (following the example set by Felix himself) immediately be rebuked, humiliated, threatened, intimidated and excommunicated or even killed. Outside the Iglesia world, there has been little interest in this cult. But things have changed. Now many people are curious of this cult and members aren’t able to silence everyone. Moreover, with the rise of the Internet, it is now impossible to keep Felix’s life a secret. The facts about the founder of Iglesia are spreading very rapidly, and members are frantically scurrying to defend their faith. But the information superhighway is paving over the ignorance that has for decades been the stronghold of their cultic dogma. In the end, this cult will fall, for the entire structure is built upon the belief that Felix Manalo was the last prophet of God in history, and this belief is demonstrably FALSE.
Yes, the Internet is important in this struggle, but it is at least as important for informing non-Iglesia about the true nature of this cult as enlightening members, many of whom will be mentally immune to criticism of Iglesia. Some of them, however, can be reached. There are approximately 4-6 million nominal members in the world. How many of these are secret ex-Iglesia? Many has estimated that 20% – 30% of the members in the Philippines are actually apostates. Although only a growing minority of members around the world have access to the Internet, simple mathematics indicate that there are already hundreds of thousands of ex-Iglesia in cyberspace. This, as well as additional millions of members who already have at least some doubts, is the soft underbelly of this cult.
We’re now stuck in a race against time, and members know it. That’s why they are working so hard to shut down freedom of speech (Pls. google Ross Tipon’s case) and any mockery or rational criticism targeting Iglesia everywhere. Will Iglesia totaly take away freedom of speech in the Philippines before we spread the truth underneath this cult’s feet? Every time they threaten us with litigations, we should respond by increasing the volume of criticism of Iglesia in circulation on the Internet. Some would claim that this isn’t our fight. We are no longer just fighting against Iglesia ni Manalo but for our own freedom of speech, and thus democracy itself. Maybe we cannot slay this dragon, but we can certainly help the people who can.
Felix and his thugs went to great lengths already in the early days of his cult to shut up critics. We know the punishment for leaving or even criticizing Iglesia, a fact which has largely kept organized groups of ex-Iglesia from forming. Until now. With a significant Iglesia presence in the Philippines, we see elements of such groups forming for the first time in history. Secret ex-Iglesias around the world are quietly watching these developments.
Some are stepping forward.
I am praying the debate is the key that will unlock a flood of scrutiny on INC. That real Christian organizations with firm foundations will now chip away at the house of lies the Manalos built and bring it down. I hope those inside that truly long for God find real salvation and get to feel the real indwelling of the holy spirit rather that the false spirituality fedto them by their either ignorant or willfully lying leadership. It will take courage for those inside to come out;pray for them.
Good evening AAWW , what objections about Bro Felix Manalo you want to raise ? The INC is a fast growing group , originally put up by Christ when He told Peter , ” and i say unto you Peter ,upon this rock I will build my church . And what was the name of the church built by Christ ? Church of Christ . It cant be Church of God , bec God did not build a church. Apostates arises from the INC for many reasons , one , they are expelled bec they cannot cope with church discipline , they wont leave an unchristian way of life , they rebel or wage war against the leadership , or they cultivate doubts on the doctrines . But anybody is free to leave , the church will not firce you to stay.But like the court of justice , there are procedures to follow in raising grievances, voicing objections or any other problem . INC doesnt wash dirty laundry in public. In the courtof laws , your case will be thrown to the waste basket if you do not follow procedures. The pastoral office is open to anyone who would like to seek counsel , prayers, help , even revolt.
Alfeo,
“And what was the name of the church built by Christ ? Church of Christ . It cant be Church of God , bec God did not build a church.”
It can’t be the church of God because God did not build a church?
Here are passages that mentioned that the church is the church of God:
“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.” (Acts 20:28)
“To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:” (1 Corinthians 1:2)
“Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;” (1 Corinthians 10:32)
More passages: 1 Corinthians 11:16, 11:22, 15:9, Galatians 1:13, 1 Thessalonians 2:14, 2 Thessalonians 1:4 and 1 Timothy 3:5) .
Your argument suppoting INC on the basis of its name is invalid.
The Church is also the church of Christ and the church of God because Jesus is God contrary to the teachings of INC. Note Acts 20:28 cited above. It is the church of God. How is it the church of God? Because God purchased it with His own blood. And that member of the Triune God that purchased the members of the church with His own blood is Christ.
Anita??? Or any other INC care to answer my questions above?
Continuation of my reply to Atticus . Good evening its 9pm sunday , may 13, the city is agog celebrating mothers day . Happy Mothers day to your mommy and to your wife .Attendance to worship services is monitored by church shepherds called Group leaders bec each local is broken down into sub groups each with a leader in charge . Attendance is a sworn duty to God bec it is through these worship services we hear about His words which keep us strong in our faith and through these we Glorify Him. If a member has been amiss it is known and he or she is visited to check why , he must be sick ,or somebody in the family is , has problems or , moved to another place . Help or advise is to comeby when such misfortunes come. Obedince to our church leaders from the subgroups to the highest echelon of the church hierarchy is normal as in any other organizations , so implementation of church programs and projects is carried out as scheduled.Programshad been thought of carefully by our leaders and the memos are just passed down . The INC has a very effective communication system .Ministers and deacons leads worships and group prayers , some pray softly depending on the emotional state of the one leading .Other members become dumbfounded when confronted and asked about church doctrines and beliefs bec one , he must be a new member , two , not really into the details of the doctrines but there are some who are ready to engage anytime . To augment ones knowledge about the word , private readings are done but most members are satisfied with the lessons shared on Thursday and Sunday wirship service.The INC members are a friendly flock and listen to other faiths preachings as this expands their knowledge and are challenge to study so they can contribute to a lively discussion.if there are points you want to clarify , ask me , i am willing to answer you to the best i can.
this weeks INC mid week lesson. Membership!, attend, offer, obey.
Atticus , from the New Living Translation, John 15:8 .when you produce more fruit, you are my true disciples. This bring great glory to my Father . Bec of this friends are invited to Bible lessons so they will learn the story of salvation nd life after death. in 1 kings 6, David planned the house for the magnificent and invisible God and Solomon faithfully carried it out.in its construction precious stones , gold and silver and the finest wood were used. The INC continued this great tradition of offerings for the building of churches , a testament for the undying loyalty and glorification of God .
Before there were burnt offerings , grain offerings , precious metals and in the modern times cash and cheques.
Hebrew 3:17-19,22-25 , …..obey your leaders and submit to them. Gid has appointed elders and oastorsto oversee the flock. Acts20:28, 1 peter5:1-4. But they are not to lord it over the church but be an example to the flock. 1 peter5:3, 2cir 1:24.
Plurality of leaders,Acts14:23, 20:17, Titus1:5 .
There should skways be a room for biblically based discussions of issues acts15 , but when leaders come to a concensus, the church should follow the leadership.
The leader teaches Gods Truth, esp on the established dictrines and commands of the faith,we all mus submit. It is not to the elders authority we submit, BUT to Gods authority.
There should be a respect to thise who teaches Gods Words.Paul wrote to Titus 2:15 . To disregard Titus would mean disregarding God , whise wirds Titus is preaching. Atticus these are the reasons we must keep and follow
in your church and in my church , not for the gratification of our leaders But For the Greater Glory of God .
Sir Alfeo piedad, what can you say about the existing of Jesus Christ? when was Jesus Existed? is it before mary’s birth or after?
your answer is much appreciated.
Atticus…You don’t know nothing ….we receive the teachings of God with truth and spirit…even you will tell everything with the lies or truth you know nothing how we cherish our church. Only we believe the teachings of God coming from the Bible which is all the answers of many questions …we have no our own opinions or any speculations . We just believe what Jesus want us to obey in truth and spirit. You may tell us ignorant because you thought you know everything but the true servants of God is one who follows sincerely and obediently and we have faith in truth and spirits…no opinions, no lies …we only depend what is written in the bible….and you Atticus if you are really a good servant of God do not spread lies that you don’t know exactly the truth. Do not condemn people that you only heard. You don’t know exactly what you are telling. You tell lies and condemn people. As if you never do sins….if you exactly think you are good worshipper your attitude even in writing is like ignorant and know nothing…You just seem talkative and arrogant to have an argument with you. …I have no time for the argument to the person like you…anything you will say it will reflect on you. Sorry…if you want a debate talk to our Minister and prove the evidence about INC and the Manalo’s you are spreading lies and condemning people…..shame on you…sorry…
Anita, you keep repeating yourself and not addressing my questions. I am condemning no one, merely pointing out the decrepit foundations of the INC. You believe what you leaders tell you Jesus wants you to be!I’ve . you again refer me to your minister. If you can not answer in support of your beliefs then let your minister poist answers to my above questions here. If his information is so vital to the salvation of others he should be eager to provide it publicly.
I attended the lesson, the key points were the ones I noted and are the repeated core theme of INC lessons.
We are not cult only those people telling we are cult who hates us….anyone who spread lies telling without evidences are not good worshippers of God…everyone is invited to search more about Church of Christ or INC…we are proud to shares our teachings without our own opinions but word by word which are written in the bible will answer your questions….find out why too many members in INC who received the true teachings of God are sincerely obeying to worship God…Everything we do in the Church is all written in the bible and explained itself in the bible. No opinions and lies….
Anita. Acts 20:28 referring specifically to INC: OPINION. FYM prophesied in the bible:OPINION. The nature of Christ as man only:OPINION. Like most INC you simply keep shouting your obedience to the bible without knowing or even trying to understand it beyond what your ministers tell you.
Also Anita I do not hate you or other INC. I despise the twisted doctrines you leaders feed you and I think many of them know they are not telling the truth.
For SLIMJIM , only in your opinion Bro.Ventilacion’s arguments was failed. Bec. You don’t accept the fact truth..But for us it was very clear and not failed argument ….our Lord Jesus Christ is not God but only the father in heaven who is God and He sent Jesus Christ to redeem his blood and save us. Now our Lord Jesus Christ is on the right hand of our God the father in heaven and we are waiting him to save us when the end of the world comes.
Mrs. Santos,
Don’t just come to our blog and keep on saying the same thing over and over again to those that disagree with you as a dodge from answering people’s question. Please don’t just say I am wrong without giving any biblical reasoning to back up your assertion. If you are not going to deal with my post that provide observations of what is wrong with Joe Ventilacion’s argument against the Trinity I’m afraid I’m not going to tolerate your slanders any longer. You said that it is only my opinion that Brother Ventilacion’s argument failed. Anyone can say “it’s only in your opinion” but one has to demonstrate it. Please SHOW IT. I’ve asked you before to deal with the post rather than keep on saying you guys are the truth and to visit your centers. Apparently you cannot or unwilling to deal with the immediate subject of our post. I have removed your repetitive comments that keeps saying the same thing without anything new to add to the actual subject of this post. You received your warning.
Slimjim, Anita may even be a non INC mocking their obstinance, or she is just incapable of understanding the term please answer the questions😀😀 I would love an online record of actual INC answers to my questions I posted above.
I verified that she was a real person and also a member of INC. I think its unfortunate that INC members are not answering your questions. Let us pray for God to allow members such as Anita to see the truth.
I only came to your blog just telling we are not cult and respect us…but your constituents telling gossips to INC and I just answered INC is the true religion. And asking me too many questions even I told that INC is like a body with many functions….that our Ministers duty is to answer the questions and showed evidences and his questions can be entertain with our Minister with evidences to prove his lies ….I never told you wrong and only telling you that’s your own opinion only because we clearly see that Bro Ventilacion’s prove that there’s only one God, the father in heaven….anyway this is my last comment….don’t ever say hearsayings and bad words to the people …we are not cult ….and your constituents pretending they are smart but not…DO RESPECT US PLEASE IF YOU WANT TO BE RESPECTED…..
Anita, first I don’t have “constituents,” the people you are commenting with here are not people I know. I”m a nobody, I don’t have no following. I imagine they found this post the same way or similar ways of how you found this post.
Secondly you did say I am wrong so I don’t know how you are now saying you never said such a thing; you implied I was wrong when you said its only my opinion what I wrote and that Ventilacion proof is valid (contrary to the conclusion of my argument in this post). Don’t play this word game. I’m not afraid of being called wrong Anita, but if you are going to go on someone’s blog and say they are wrong, please back it up and SHOW they are wrong and not spend days saying I am wrong without showing it. You want us to talk to ministers that can refute this; well, you are an INC member so please free to share with us what they taught you at their center with how to counter my refutation of Ventilacion’s speech at the debate. I’m blocking you since you are now making things personal in your comments of saying people are lying, etc. I’ve been fair to let you share but you obviously are not actually dealing with the subject at hand.
Anita,
The Bible declares that Jesus is the Son of God. He is truly God. You need to read the Bible without being told by your “minister.”
You must repent of your sin. You need to stop blaspheming God by twisting the Bible. INC is a cult. INC is the resurrected ancient heresy of Arianism. INC teaches the same heresy as Arius.
Jesus is God.
A few months ago the even mentioned Arius as some kind of hero during a lesson.
To Andy and Neyx Lagman : in John 20:29 it was said thst blessed are those who have not seen ,yet have believed. For multitude of INCs do not need overwhelming evidence to grow in faith , Though there are persistent ones who digs deeper . Faith does not only grow from things read, told or heard , it is a calling felt fro the heart .
A cult is defined by some as a religous group or professing to be religous whose members are controlled almist entirely by a single individual or by an organization.The INC banners the teachings of Christ and doesnt teach just any other gospel. It is not a cult , what it has is is a strong leadership which only thinks for the welfare of its members and the salvation of their souls come judgement day . Is teaching to worship God everyday controlling? Is preaching the gispel of Jesus controlling ? If these 2 questions answers yes , they have the members in full control , bec thst what give glory to God and to our Lord and Savior JesusChrist. What do the 2 of you mean by a cult and please elaborate on the term controlling . I enjoy talking with folks like you bec this is a chance that you get to know more about the INC or the other side of what you know . Please reply fellows ,dont be shy 😊
She can’t answer; like most INC she only knows what she is taught, “the pristine gospel” but no context and certain!y no real understanding. She went throght the classclassic INC pattern of act offended, tell you to stop calling the names then calling you a lied etc…and then inviting you to bible studies to learch more about thee “true church”.
I think you captured her pattern accurately; I’ve only known a few INC member. It seems you know more. So is this a pattern you see among other INC members too?
Let us pray for Anita, for her to see the light and God would save her.
Yep,they almost invariably follow the same routine when challenged.
Wow my spelling is bad😀😀😀😀
I, for one, actually think it is great Anita is engaging. It is nearly impossible to get INC members to engage because of their view of Scripture and the need for a minister as a mediator of truth from Scripture.
I really hope many more INC members will ind this page and talk to Christians.
taco; I would agree if they would actually engage in real dialog.
[…] Argument against the Trinity? Jose Ventilacion on the death of Christ […]
Praise God for this! God bless you! I was once an INC member! Only by His grace was I able to see God’s truth. ALL of the members there don’t read the entire Bible they only browse the verses given to them. Please pray for them they are 2% of the Philippines population that’s over 2 million souls to grieve on.
Wow thank you for sharing your testimony! Your comment moved me to pray right now!
Slim Jim : if ill follow your contention that the church founded by Christ in Matthew 16 :18 is the Church of God , something is lost in translation. First , John 4:24 says God is spirit and a spirit does not have a human body . If you say that the logos is God too , which you were pertaining to Jesus then there were two Gods in the begiining , contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the words of the true God.
There cannot be two true Gods.Jesus when he came to earth was all bones,flesh and blood.Numbers 23:19 , God is not a man…Colossians 1:15
call God the invisible God . Timothy 1:17 , praises God saying ,” …immortal, invisible ,the only God …if God has a physical body he could not be in all places at once. How can God then built a church and purchased it with His blood when the true God is invisible., is a spirit and has no flesh and blood.JesusChrist as head and the church His body is the one new man ., the Church of Christ is the proper name.
Alfeo,
Are you saying those verses SlimJim quoted from the Bible that called the church, “Church of God” are mistranslations from the Greek? Did you check from the Greek? SlimJim could you check with the Greek?
Mr Alfeo piedad
so you mean the church that Christ build was really apostate? lets say approximately 100 AD because the apostle all died. so when was the church again build. 1914?? so 1814 years GAP… so where did you Get your Bible Then…????
Good evening Nina , Hello Slim Jim
Hello everyone, I am not trinitarian, just think about the following great problems that the Trinity is facing:
The Trinity is incomprehensible: they are three persons in one God. Every person is God, yet there are not three gods but one God. Is this clear? of course not, it promotes confusion.
The word “Trinity” does not appear in the Bible.
The scriptures never explain the Trinity. It is a great structural problem concerning the identity of God, who is God ?, is Jehovah ?, is Jesus?, both ? If the Trinity existed, Jehovah would have explained it, because “God is a God not of disorder” (1 Cor. 14:33).
The texts on which the Trinitarians base themselves refer only to the Father and the Son. When they mention “Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” the Bible never says that they are God, that they are coequal, nor co-eternal, nothing.
The Trinity has confused people for centuries. It has not contributed to spiritual edification, only controversies. The false religion originated in Babylon, greek word that comes from “babel”, which means “confusion”.
Early Christians did not believe in the Trinity, nor did Jesus believe (John 17: 3).
History and Archeology show that the Trinity comes from the false religion. You can find images and sculptures of trinitarian gods from Babylon and Egypt in museums and ancient churches. The Trinity had its origin and development by men in the councils of Nicaea (325 CE) and Constantinople (381 CE), not in the Bible.
Slim Jim : if Jesus is the word , and the word is God ,so Jesus is God , so there were 2 individual Gods fom the beginning contrary To Gods words and the teachings of Jesus . The holy spirit was never mentioned as part of the team . If the trinity is true , it should have been complete from the beginning.
Also in Acts7:55 -56 , Romans 8:34 ,ephesians 1:20, colossians3:1, hebrews1:3,8:1 ,10:12 ,12:2 , JesusChrist is always seen , described ,mentioned to be standing , seated at the right hand of God . Again at the end , if we follow your premise , there are 2 true Gods and not one , defying your 3 in one God.
Ana , logic and common sense was lost .
Javier,
are you aware of what you are saying.. ill give you some of the 1st & 2nd century Believers called Jesus Is God. this is before Nicean Council
1) Justin Martyr | 150 AD | Dialoque w/ Trypho Ch. 56)
2) Tatian the Syrian | 170 AD | Address Greek Ch.21
3) Irenaus of Lyons | 180 AD | Against Heresies Book-1, Ch.10, Sec.1
4) Clement of Alexandria | 190 AD | Fragments, Sec.3, Ch.1, Comments 1John
5) Terturllian | 200 AD | Against Praxeas, Ch. 11
1st-2nd Century PAGAN WRITINGS, JESUS CALLED GOD, PROPHET, TEACHER, WISEMAN, MESSIAH
1) Thallus | 52 AD | Quoted by Julius Africanus
2) Cornelius Tacitus | 56-120 AD |
3) Mara Bar- Serapion | 70 AD |
4) Phlegon | 80-140 AD | Quoted by Origen
5) Pliny the The Younger | 61-113 AD |
1st-2nd Century JEWISH WRITINGS, JESUS CALLED TEACHER, PROPHET, MESSIAH.
1) Josephus | 37-101 AD..
Are you aware what happen in the council of Nicaea?
do you know that they deal with this this Bishop Arius of Alexandria
whose belief is ” there was a time that Jesus Did not exist? and 315 of bishop attend this council and they Condemn his teaching? take Note those bishop are the survivor of the last persecution during the reign of emperor Diocletian..
are you aware of that.. council of Nicaea has nothing to Do with Trinity…
All other churches say that they belong to God , serves God and are united in thie Quest , but they are not. It is the Church Of Christ which was redeemed by blood , the blood of Christ ( hebrew 9:22 ,) the Church of Christ is of God and is the plan of God for mans salvation through His begotten son JesusChrist.God is not a spirit and He is not flesh and blood as Jesus describes in John 4:24 and in Luke 24: 34-44.
There us only one Faith, one Baptism and one Lord , Ephesians 4:4-6 .There are those that want to believe in another Jesus 2 Cor 11:4 and put up with a false belief if faith. Not everyone can accept this truth bec their religion is not based on Gods laws but on man made traditions and philosophies., MARK 7:7, THEY WORSHIP ME IN VAIN; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.
Alfeo,
Let me begin with my reply to your comment above on May 15, 2017 at 9:03 am.
1.) “Slim Jim : if ill follow your contention that the church founded by Christ in Matthew 16 :18 is the Church of God , something is lost in translation.”
Response: Nina is right to comment below when she asked you: Did you check in the Greek to say that there is something lost in translation? You can’t just say its a translation problem without proving it from the Greek. The Greek is very clear in all those verses I mentioned in that it mentioned the church as the Church of God. Acts 20:28 makes it clear that Christ is the head of the church since He is God.
2.) First , John 4:24 says God is spirit and a spirit does not have a human body.”
Response: I wrote my response to your comment here: https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2017/05/18/argument-against-the-trinity-christs-physical-body/.
3.) If you say that the logos is God too , which you were pertaining to Jesus then there were two Gods in the begiining , contrary to the teachings of Jesus and the words of the true God.
Response: Not two “Gods” but Logos is one Person and the God the Father the other Person within the Being who is the One and Only God.
4.) There cannot be two true Gods.Jesus when he came to earth was all bones,flesh and blood.Numbers 23:19 , God is not a man…Colossians 1:15
call God the invisible God . Timothy 1:17 , praises God saying ,” …immortal, invisible ,the only God …if God has a physical body he could not be in all places at once. How can God then built a church and purchased it with His blood when the true God is invisible., is a spirit and has no flesh and blood.
Response: I wrote my response to your comment here: https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2017/05/18/argument-against-the-trinity-christs-physical-body/.
5.) JesusChrist as head and the church His body is the one new man ., the Church of Christ is the proper name.
Response: Note just because a church is called the Church of Christ as its name doesn’t make it one. There’s more than one type of churches that call themselves Church of Christ including what people call Mormons. But don’t forget the church is also call the church of God from the verses I cited. And don’t forget Acts 20:28 that the God whom the church belong to God “which He purchased with His own blood.” This makes sense if Jesus Christ is God.
My response below for point 6 onwards is replying to your comment on May 17, 2017 at 4:04 pm.
6.) “if Jesus is the word”
Response: You said “if Jesus is the word,” but it is not an “if” He is the Word but that Jesus is the Word of God. This is taught in the Bible. We know that Jesus is the Word of God according to John 1:1 described as becoming incarnate among us in John 1:14. We know Revelation 19:13 testify Jesus is the Word of God: “He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.” This is a chapter that focuses on the return of Christ and gives many other titles that include Christ as the Word.
7.) “and the word is God”
Response: You continue with a second conditional that “if” “the word is God,” but it is not an “if” the Word is God but that Jesus as the Word is God. This is taught in the Bible. We know that Jesus is the Word of God according to John 1:1c: Te?? ?? ? ?????.
8.) “so Jesus is God”
Response: That necessarily and logically follows from the premises you gave in point 6-7. I’ve demonstrated that from Scripture for each condition.
9.) “so there were 2 individual Gods fom the beginning contrary To Gods words and the teachings of Jesus.”
Response: The Trinity is not a belief that there are two God. This would be a strawman fallacy. To subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity is a belief that there is one God.
10.) “The holy spirit was never mentioned as part of the team.”
Response: I see you asserting this often. I think it might be more helpful to ask how do you know that God the Father is God? I ask because the same way you believe that the Father is God is the same way I see the Holy Spirit is God.
11.) “If the trinity is true , it should have been complete from the beginning.”
Response: No. See my reply here: https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/argument-against-the-trinity-it-should-have-been-completely-taught-from-the-beginning-of-the-bible/
12.) “Also in Acts7:55 -56 , Romans 8:34 ,ephesians 1:20, colossians3:1, hebrews1:3,8:1 ,10:12 ,12:2 , JesusChrist is always seen , described ,mentioned to be standing , seated at the right hand of God. Again at the end , if we follow your premise , there are 2 true Gods and not one , defying your 3 in one God.”
Response: Since the Father is God, it is not a problem for the belief of the Trinity that there are passages in which Jesus is at the right hand of God, specifically God the Father. While Jesus and the Father are different persons yet each member of the Trinity is truly divine and therefore proper to call them God just like Jesus in Acts 20:28. So it is not a problem. It is also does not follow that there must be two Gods here as we mention before the belief of the Trinity is there is only one being name God who exists also as three persons.
13.) “Ana , logic and common sense was lost.”
Response: No. It is the logical implication of what is taught in Scripture that leads us to conclude the Trinity.
The following is a response to your comment on May 19, 2017 at 2:56 pm
14.) “All other churches say that they belong to God , serves God and are united in thie Quest , but they are not. It is the Church Of Christ which was redeemed by blood , the blood of Christ ( hebrew 9:22 ,) the Church of Christ is of God and is the plan of God for mans salvation through His begotten son JesusChrist.”
Response: INC is not the true church because it denies the Gospel of how we are saved and also deny the God of the Bible by advocating unitarianism.
15.) “God is not a spirit and He is not flesh and blood as Jesus describes in John 4:24 and in Luke 24: 34-44.”
Response: God’s nature is Spirit but as we mentioned in the previous links I’ve argued that you are not accounting for the Bible’s teaching of God becoming incarnate. So this is not an argument against the Trinity.
16.) “There us only one Faith, one Baptism and one Lord , Ephesians 4:4-6 .There are those that want to believe in another Jesus 2 Cor 11:4 and put up with a false belief if faith. Not everyone can accept this truth bec their religion is not based on Gods laws but on man made traditions and philosophies., MARK 7:7, THEY WORSHIP ME IN VAIN; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.
Response: I think this describes INC.
Point by point response. Learning from the post and the comments
[…] of the comments in my previous post “Argument against the Trinity? Jose Ventilacion on the death of Christ” had a comment from “Javier” that tried to argue against the […]
Hi SLIMJIM, “Trinity” or “Tritheism”, what’s the difference ? it is almost the same. Maybe, the only difference is that Egypt and Babylon did not fall in the “mistery” or incomprehensible reasoning of christianity that everyone of the three persons is god, “and yet there are not three gods, but one God”.
Why did Egypt and Babylon not have duets, quartets, quintets or groups of more gods ? But, !!! they had trinities of gods, exactly the same as christianity !!! too much casuality ? Of course not, this is simply because the “Trinity” had its origin in the … let’s call it this way, the “Tritheism”. Just a “copy paste” with some little changes.
Please note how simmilar are these images of pagan gods in comparison with those of the christian Trinity:
https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=Trinity+of+gods+in+Egypt+and+Babylon&rlz=1C1WPZB_enMX713MX713&oq=Trinity+of+gods+in+Egypt+and+Babylon&aqs=chrome..69i57.15178j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=trinity+of+gods+in+egypt+and+babylon+images
I have no doubt.
Many thanks !!!
Good a m Slim Jim , in an article , Origin of Sun Worship, Trinity, Babylon and Sunday , it was wriiten that the triune god has its origin in Satanic pagan worship . Alexander Hislop in his book , The Two Babylons, 2nd American ed ( Neptune , New Jersey), loizeaux Brothers, 1959 wrote , that the trinity has its origin in Babylon , when Cush , son of Ham and grandson of Noah , helped with his son Nimrod , build the Tower of Babel. After God confused their language and were scattered , Nimrod , who was said to be the originator of sun worship and founder of Babylon , married his mother Semiramis ,sold out to Devil worship with babies and homan sacrifices.Shem , son of Noah was filled with wrath that he killed Nimrod and chopped him into pieces.
The followers of Nimrod continued devil worship in secret .Semiramis revive hers and Nimrods religion and gave it a new form. The sun became a symbol of Nimrod and she the moon. She told their people that a ray of the sun has impregnated her , and actually she told it was Nimrods reincarnation , the child she called Tammuz and the three were worshipped as the personification of the sun god and this is where the 3 in 1 Trinity doctrine originated. Semiramis demanded worship for the three of them and claimed that her son is both God the father and God the son.This is the first incomprehensible divine Trinity , the Two Babylon ,p51.. Semiramis soon became Ashtarte and Nimrod , Baal . Babylon the seat of satan worship , moved to Medes and Pergamus , and then to Rome , where it found new benefactors .
Alfeo, would you read material(s) that would be in favor of Trinitarian theology? Obviously Trinitarians would disagree with this historical analysis.
Jeff Downs , the term Trinity cannot be found in the Bible. The Bible is the only source of divine revelation . And it is simply not on Gods menu. Many researchers and theologians , even those leaning in iits favor , write and say , Trinity sows confusion bec it us difficult to understand .isaiah 46 : 9-10 gave it short and swift ” i am God and there is no other…
Messages from an ex – inc. He is probably the Antonio Ebangelista
http://www.network54.com/Forum/70213/thread/1149736776/1/Defeating+the+Cult+of+Manalo%2C+Its+Imminent+Fall
http://www.network54.com/Forum/70213/thread/1426280512/Will+the+Internet+lay+the+DIRTY+Cult+of+Manalo%3F
http://www.network54.com/Forum/70213/thread/1147402255/To+Manalo+Cultists+Hurt+by+my+Postings
[…] of the comments in my previous post “Argument against the Trinity? Jose Ventilacion on the death of Christ” had a comment from “Alfeo piedad” that tried to argue against the […]
In hindsight , i remember Dr james White telling that worshipping Christ , since the Church of Christ / Iglesia Ni Cristo does not regard him as God is Idolatry . It cannot be idolatrous because Christ is not an idol or a block of wood .He is worship as commanded by God .
Deuteronomy 4:24 says: “24 For Jehovah your God is a consuming fire, a God who requires exclusive devotion.”
Matthew 4:10 says: “10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
Based on these verses, I believe that Jesus is the must important person of the universe after Jehovah God, but, worship must be oriented only to Jehova God.
Thank you !!!
Javier.
Philippians 2: 9-10 ….that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow…..to the Glory of God the Father.Christ is worshipped not as God .
Hello, yes, I do agree partially.
Every knee should bow to recognize Jesus’ authority as God’s only-begotten Son (1 John 4:9). We must acknowledge his “superior position” to which God has exalted his Son as “king of kings” (Revelation 19:16).
But at the same time, this must be in harmony with Matthew 4:10, by Jesus’ own words: “worship” and “sacred service” must be directed to Jehovah alone.
Thank you !!!
Alfeo piedad
what Can you say about John 5:23(that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.)
how do you Honor the Son sir?
is Jesus Aware that only God is to be Worship?
Luke 4:8 (And Jesus answered and said to him, [e]“Get behind Me, Satan! [f]For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”)
Then why Jesus Allowed his Disciple to Be Worship him.
your Answer is much appreciated.
Good evening Javier , Slim White, JesusChrist is to be worshipped bec it is the commandment or the will of God ( Philippians 2 : 9- 11 ) God is then glorified, honored and worshipped in truth . Thanks Mr Slim for allowing to post .
Alfeo piedad
how about Philippians 2:5-6 ” Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God,”
what does it mean being in the form of God?
[…] Argument against the Trinity? Jose Ventilacion on the death of Christ […]
[…] Argument against the Trinity? Jose Ventilacion on the death of Christ […]
The INC is indeed a growing cult here in the Philippines. They even constructed the Philippine Arena, largest indoor arena in the world for BUSINESS PURPOSES. It happened that I learned the story of one former member of INC in hinterland area, that when he was not able to attend their worship, he was immediately kicked out in their cult. He has no money to sustain his membership with this cult.
During their debate. they would transport their members to the venue. they would use the fallacy, “argumentum ad popolum.” Dr. White presented a scholarly argument, while ventilacion would appeal to the people.
Can you define NoySPS what a cult is ?
How are you slimjim ? Can you help NoySPS define what a cult is ? Secondly , can i ask you whst is Christ nature of being , now he is in the heaven ? Is he a spirit or a man with flesh and blood?
Alfeo piedad
Both! Jesus has A two nature he is Truly God & Truly Man.. it is Called Hypostatic Union.. arent you aware of this??
I determined that so few comments actually dealt with the post…typical example of cults.
INC admission here shows they are polytheists…worshipping what they say is not God
You’re right. Looking at it that way shows how serious they have erred.
INC =Polytheists
Why the INC is Very Sensitive and Reacts So Violently When You Criticize Their Doctrines?
It is because you pressed their sore spot. If you are strong you can take a punch and not flinch, but if you have a sore spot, a nudge on that sore spot will make you scream. INC cultists committed the huge blunder of revealing their vulnerability. Now the everyone knows what hurts them. When you find your opponent’s weak spot, it is exactly where you want to hit him.
Felix was a narcissist and his cultists, by having entered into his bubble universe have become narcissists by extension. More precisely, they are reverse narcissists. A commonly used term for reverse narcissist is co-dependent.
The biggest preoccupation of the narcissist is the preservation of his image. But the reverse narcissists do not have self image. The narcissist destroys the self image of his co-dependents and gives them his own image to cling to. He destroys their identity and self-hood and makes them believe that their glory and greatness is in their submission and obedience to him. He makes them swallow that without him they are nothing. That they are like specks of dust floating in the air, invisible and insignificant, but they can light up and become visible if they come under his light. That is how the narcissist controls his co-dependents.
The first thing INC does is to destroy the self image of the believers. It convinces them that without INC they are worthless creatures only fit for hellfire. It tells them that all other faiths are satanic. All other humans will go to hell and stay there for eternity. Based on their asinine doctrines, all non-INCs like Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Cory, Martin Luther King Jr, Pfc. Ross A. McGinnis (the soldier that saved the lives of his comrades by covering the grenade with his body), single mothers doing multiple jobs to support their children, Catholic comfort women of Japanese soldiers during WW2 are now in hell or are destined to hell unless they convert or died as INCs. Even Celine Dion and Sen. Manny Pacquiao are going to hell too! Those cultists are made to despise their identity and self-hood and seek their glory in their submission to INC administration and slavery to its deity who was only Felix’s own alter ego. INC has taken everything from its wretched believers. They are robbed from their identity and self pride. All they have now is INC. That is why INC for cultists is more than just a religion. It is their identity. When you criticize INC, they perceive it as an attack on their identity and cringe with pain. They take that not only as an insult but also as an assault on their person. Like a cornered animal they become vicious and fight back with all their might – a fight of survival. That is why you see such a violent reaction to Ross Tipon’s book.
Why we must continue the campaign of humiliation and ridicule? It’s because we must destroy that false image of INC to which the cultists cling for their identity. That idol must be smashed. When that false image is destroyed there would be nothing left to cling to and only then the cultists will be able to find themselves and recover their lost self-hood. The co-dependent must see that his narcissist, the object of his adoration, is not the ‘Last Messenger of God’ but a fraud, a loser, a clown. This can’t be done through logical argumentations alone. By trying to disprove the claims of a mentally deranged fruitcake with philosophical and logical expostulations and remonstrations you give him importance. Felix was an idiot, a psychopath, a crackpot. He needs to be laughed at not disproved. What is there to disprove about being an ‘angel’ from the Philippines, being a bird of prey and stopping the World War 1 by ‘talking’ to the four European ‘angels’? Is God stupider than his prophets? The entire INC doctrine is a big joke. If it was not so violent, it would be the most laughable and comical doctrine ever written.
Felix was a jackass. People who believe in him are stupid. Let us call a spade a spade. These people must be laughed at. They, their asinine doctrines and their screwball prophet have to be ridiculed not respected. Let them cringe, let them wince, let them agonize. We must demolish this fetish and break the shackles of these wretched people. They are destroying the very basic cell of society called family. They must be set free and the only way to do that is to demolish their fetish.
Once Felix is ridiculed, once this talisman is destroyed, cultists will be liberated and they will leave INC. When that happens they’ll thank you.
It is not difficult to destroy INC. INC is the pumped up ego of a megalomaniac psychopath. Felix was a narcissist madman. Just as a huge balloon can be deflated by a small needle, all it takes to make INC explode is to ridicule its loony inventor and its brainless followers.
Shame works! I have seen it work many times. It worked for me. It was not just the truth but also the savagery of the cultists that made me want to distance myself from INC. I was ashamed of INC; I was embarrassed of what Felix, Erano and Eduardo had done and what their cultists were doing. I thought to myself, what would I say if people find out the truth about Felix’s perversions and ask me, how can you follow a rapist, plunderer, avaricious, liar, womanizer prophet pretender? What is your opinion about the ridiculous scientific and logical blunders of the doctrines of your INC? Wouldn’t that be embarrassing? Wouldn’t I look like a fool? Shame works on those who have the sense of shame. Those are the ones we want to rescue. Shame does not work on those who have no shame. Those we don’t want anyway. Let the fools remain INC cultists. We want to salvage intelligent and good people who call themselves cultists by error.
That is the INC psychology. It is all pomposity and bravado. I give you my word that if INC is exposed and ridiculed publicly and systematically, it will be defeated. Shame is a great motivator as well as deterrent. Do not underestimate the power of ridicule. This is serious stuff not a laughing matter.
Why the INC is Very Sensitive and Reacts So Violently When You Criticize Their Doctrines?
It is because you pressed their sore spot. If you are strong you can take a punch and not flinch, but if you have a sore spot, a nudge on that sore spot will make you scream. INC cultists committed the huge blunder of revealing their vulnerability. Now the everyone knows what hurts them. When you find your opponent’s weak spot, it is exactly where you want to hit him.
Felix was a narcissist and his cultists, by having entered into his bubble universe have become narcissists by extension. More precisely, they are reverse narcissists. A commonly used term for reverse narcissist is co-dependent.
The biggest preoccupation of the narcissist is the preservation of his image. But the reverse narcissists do not have self image. The narcissist destroys the self image of his co-dependents and gives them his own image to cling to. He destroys their identity and self-hood and makes them believe that their glory and greatness is in their submission and obedience to him. He makes them swallow that without him they are nothing. That they are like specks of dust floating in the air, invisible and insignificant, but they can light up and become visible if they come under his light. That is how the narcissist controls his co-dependents.
The first thing INC does is to destroy the self image of the believers. It convinces them that without INC they are worthless creatures only fit for hellfire. It tells them that all other faiths are satanic. All other humans will go to hell and stay there for eternity. Based on their asinine doctrines, all non-INCs like Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Cory, Martin Luther King Jr, Pfc. Ross A. McGinnis (the soldier that saved the lives of his comrades by covering the grenade with his body), single mothers doing multiple jobs to support their children, Catholic comfort women of Japanese soldiers during WW2 are now in hell or are destined to hell unless they convert or died as INCs. Even Celine Dion and Sen. Manny Pacquiao are going to hell too! Those cultists are made to despise their identity and self-hood and seek their glory in their submission to INC administration and slavery to its deity who was only Felix’s own alter ego. INC has taken everything from its wretched believers. They are robbed from their identity and self pride. All they have now is INC. That is why INC for cultists is more than just a religion. It is their identity. When you criticize INC, they perceive it as an attack on their identity and cringe with pain. They take that not only as an insult but also as an assault on their person. Like a cornered animal they become vicious and fight back with all their might – a fight of survival. That is why you see such a violent reaction to Ross Tipon’s book.
Why we must continue the campaign of humiliation and ridicule? It’s because we must destroy that false image of INC to which the cultists cling for their identity. That idol must be smashed. When that false image is destroyed there would be nothing left to cling to and only then the cultists will be able to find themselves and recover their lost self-hood. The co-dependent must see that his narcissist, the object of his adoration, is not the ‘Last Messenger of God’ but a fraud, a loser, a clown. This can’t be done through logical argumentations alone. By trying to disprove the claims of a mentally deranged fruitcake with philosophical and logical expostulations and remonstrations you give him importance. Felix was an idiot, a psychopath, a crackpot. He needs to be laughed at not disproved. What is there to disprove about being an ‘angel’ from the Philippines, being a bird of prey and stopping the World War 1 by ‘talking’ to the four European ‘angels’? Is God stupider than his prophets? The entire INC doctrine is a big joke. If it was not so violent, it would be the most laughable and comical doctrine ever written.
Felix was a jackass. People who believe in him are stupid. Let us call a spade a spade. These people must be laughed at. They, their asinine doctrines and their screwball prophet have to be ridiculed not respected. Let them cringe, let them wince, let them agonize. We must demolish this fetish and break the shackles of these wretched people. They are destroying the very basic cell of society called family. They must be set free and the only way to do that is to demolish their fetish.
Once Felix is ridiculed, once this talisman is destroyed, cultists will be liberated and they will leave INC. When that happens they’ll thank you.
It is not difficult to destroy INC. INC is the pumped up ego of a megalomaniac psychopath. Felix was a narcissist madman. Just as a huge balloon can be deflated by a small needle, all it takes to make INC explode is to ridicule its loony inventor and its brainless followers.
Shame works! I have seen it work many times. It worked for me. It was not just the truth but also the savagery of the cultists that made me want to distance myself from INC. I was ashamed of INC; I was embarrassed of what Felix, Erano and Eduardo had done and what their cultists were doing. I thought to myself, what would I say if people find out the truth about Felix’s perversions and ask me, how can you follow a rapist, plunderer, avaricious, liar, womanizer prophet pretender? What is your opinion about the ridiculous scientific and logical blunders of the doctrines of your INC? Wouldn’t that be embarrassing? Wouldn’t I look like a fool? Shame works on those who have the sense of shame. Those are the ones we want to rescue. Shame does not work on those who have no shame. Those we don’t want anyway. Let the fools remain INC cultists. We want to salvage intelligent and good people who call themselves cultists by error.
That is the INC psychology. It is all pomposity and bravado. I give you my word that if INC is exposed and ridiculed publicly and systematically, it will be defeated. Shame is a great motivator as well as deterrent. Do not underestimate the power of ridicule. This is serious stuff not a laughing matter.
Good point Rosita Menorca
Again INC =Polytheists
i am INC forever and ever until i died hahaha
I hope you repent to Jesus Christ as Divine Lord and Savior.
Edit: No spamming and trolling.
See https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2016/08/24/seventeen-sessions-on-the-trinity-audios-and-notes/
Thank you for writing this for Jesus our LORD and Savior
Good article
Well laid out outline SlimJim
Good retort
It is important to get the definition of the Trinity and Incarnation right as you stated in the essay.
[…] Argument against the Trinity? Jose Ventilacion on the death of Christ […]
The challenges anti-Trinitarians have is that their own concept of God cannot explain all the verses about God and what He is like so they MUST do lengthy bad explanations to disprove the Trinity.
For years Arians have persecuted Trinitarian Christians see Emperor Valens on google
I enjoy this take down to the praise of His glorious grace! In theology a small details overlooked can have a big impact.