Last month I posted Who Is God? Trinity Debate: Dr. James White vs Bro. Joe Ventilacion. This was a debate between Christian apologist James White and a defender of the cult Iglesia ni Cristo.
Iglesia ni Cristo denies the deity of Christ. In the comment section of my post an individual name Alfeo Piedad argued against the divinity of Christ. In this post I want address this specific argument:
First , John 4:24 says God is spirit and a spirit does not have a human body….1 Timothy 1:17 , praises God saying ,” …immortal, invisible ,the only God …if God has a physical body he could not be in all places at once. How can God then built a church and purchased it with His blood when the true God is invisible., is a spirit and has no flesh and blood.
John 4:24 states “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
1 Timothy 1:17 states “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.”
Does the fact that Jesus has a human body mean that Jesus was not Divine? I don’t think so let me explain.
- First off it is true that Jesus had a physical body.
- Secondly it is also true that God is Spirit and does not have a physical body in light of John 4:24 and 1 Timothy 1;17.
- It is important that we get our definition of the Trinity right. Why? Because those who are refuting the Trinity need to get the definition right or else they risk the high probability of not refuting the actual doctrine of the Trinity in their arguments but instead commit a strawman fallacy.
- What is the doctrine of the Trinity? I thought the debate laid out the doctrine of the Trinity well; the doctrine of the Trinity is the doctrine that “within the One Being that is God there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal Persons, namely the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.“
- Equally important is defining the doctrine of Incarnation. The Incarnation is when the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son, became fully a man while still being fully God. Thus, in Jesus He is both God and man; He has both a divine nature and a human nature.
- Its one thing to define a doctrine but another thing to demonstrate that it is Biblical. We see though that the Incarnation is Biblical. The Bible does teach the doctrine of the Incarnation.
- Colossians 2:9 affirms this doctrine when Paul referring to Christ stated “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.“
- We see the doctrine of the incarnation is affirmed in the book of John which is important to interpret Jesus being tired in John 4:6 according to the greater context of the book of John itself. John 1:1 teaches Jesus, whose title include “Word,” is Himself God. As God Jesus is the Creator of all thing according to John 1:3. Then in John 1:14 it affirmed that Jesus as God also became man: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.“
- In light of the fact that Jesus is God incarnate we thus do not have a Bible contradiction here concerning Jesus having a physical body and Jesus also being a member of the Triune God.
- Jesus has two nature: Divine and human.
- Jesus in His humanity would have human attributes.
- Jesus in His divine nature would have divine attributes.
- Since Jesus is human we should not be surprised that He has a human side that include a human physical body.
- But Jesus’ human nature and divine nature must not be confused.
- While Jesus has a physical human body Jesus in His Divine nature outside of His humanity would be non-physical.
- Put another way, Jesus in His Divine essence is Spirit although Jesus in the incarnation has take on additional physical bodily form. This physical human body does not minimize His Divinity in terms of His Divine nature or being a Personhood within the Godhead.
- There is no argument against Jesus’ divinity or the Trinity if one recognizes the categorical fallacy being committed by the argument.
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
Vincent I appreciate you reblogging this post.
You’re very welcome Pastor Jim 😎
His argument is the equivalent of saying:
water can’t cut you. It can when it is in the form of ice.
Water can’t quench thirst. It can when in liquid form.
Water can’t move independent of itself. It can when in vapor form.
All three take on separate forms. Yet all three are one.
Those of some good analogies there to show the point that Jesus is in essence God (analogy: water as H2O) though He can take on a form that permit Him to take on bodily form (analogy:solid, liquid or vapor) which adds additional properties but His divine essence remains.
We talked about the completeness of many of God’s attributes in Sunday School last week. I think we think we have to divide up His characteristics so that they come to 100 percent. What we fail to remember is that He is all of the things he is, 100 percent, and all of the time. Of course it’s incomprehensible. If we could comprehend it totally, what kind of God would THAT be? Not much of one, for sure. I would not think much of Him if I could fully understand Him. It would be just like knowing you, or Patrick. Not that you aren’t great guys and all, but I think the point is made.
I think you have a good point about the true God being someone we can’t fully comprehend. Strangely this is an objection that’s been invoked in different commentators on our blog this week. But that incomprehensibility of God isn’t an argument against the Trinity per se or as a stand alone argument. Thanks Wally for reading and commenting on this.
Yessir. Yes I have been following along the conversation. It’s been interesting for sure
This is a good defense of the doctrine of the Trinity, and you are wise to bring in the doctrine of the Incarnation. On the other hand, your subpoints under point 7 have me concerned about the doctrine of the Two Natures of Christ.
A preacher named Nestor objected when other preachers called Mary the mother of God. Nestor said that Mary was the mother of the human Jesus but not the mother of the divine Jesus–ergo, not the mother of God. A Church Council met, prayed, studied Scripture, debated, and concluded that Nestor was mistaken. The Two Natures belong to one Jesus, so that the human nature is experienced by the divine, and the divine nature is experienced by the human.
The Second Person of the Trinity is God. He is also human. Therefore, God was born, God learned how to walk and how to talk, God suffered, God died and was buried, God rose on the third day. At the same time, the completely human Jesus of Nazareth knew everything, is Almighty, and is present everywhere in the universe. Even from the manger, he was in charge of Creation. J.
J,
I appreciate your comment. For the record I totally repudiate Nestorianism and I think it is a heresy. I had some debates against Nestorians when I was in seminary and I believe in this blog nearly ten years ago. My intent was not to advocate anything that sound Nestorian. I changed point seven’s first sentence that originally read “Put another way, Jesus in His Divine essence is Spirit although Jesus in in his humanity has physical bodily form” to “Put another way, Jesus in His Divine essence is Spirit although Jesus in the incarnation has taken on additional physical bodily form.” I also changed the second sentence which read “This physical human body does not effect His Divinity or His Divine nature,” to “This physical human body does not minimize His Divinity in terms of His Divine nature or His Personhood within the Godhead.” I think it better capture more what I was saying. Is there any possible problem you might see that I don’t see with the new wording? Thanks J.
Those corrections look good.
It is very hard to find the vocabulary to discuss the Two Natures in contemporary terms. The original terms serve, of course, but contemporary people do not always understand them. American Protestantism is rife with Nestorianism, and most American Nestorians don’t even know what it is. J.
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If the Almighty is 3 in one , whom was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane , and while he was nailed on the cross?
Jesus was praying to God the Father. I suggest you drop straw man argument against the Trinity on this blog as it is getting old.
If Jesus was praying to God the Father , then , was he as human praying to his other self ?SlimJim’s Response: Misrepresentation of the Trinity, note point 4 of my post. Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not the Son.
Are you erasing my comments ?
Yes. You are repeating the same old bad arguments left throughout the blog for months. For the record the Trinity is not like water in the sense you are using it.
Love this series brother! Great work and God bless!
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Well done!
This is a good example why systematic theology is important for apologetics